|
|
|
|||
| Go to page 1~2 [Next] | ||||||||||
tommy Eternal Order Devil's Island 16543 Posts 
|
Kindly describe the function of our magic without describing its structure and then describe its structure without describing its function.
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.
Tommy |
|||||||||
|
Jonathan Townsend Eternal Order Ossining, NY 27300 Posts
|
? I saw this guy do stuff that's like in those stories. but I was there.
...to all the coins I've dropped here
|
|||||||||
|
tommy Eternal Order Devil's Island 16543 Posts
|
When we talk of the function of something we are talking about its intentions, purpose, what it does, its activity and the result of that activity.
When we talk of the structure of something then we are referring to its, form, physical form or pattern. Structure is the architecture. There is a distinction between the two, don't you think?
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.
Tommy |
|||||||||
|
Brad Burt Inner circle 2675 Posts
|
The function is to deceive and the structure is that which serves the deception.
Best,
Brad Burt
|
|||||||||
funsway Inner circle old things in new ways - new things in old ways 9987 Posts
|
I would enlarge Brad's thought to: the function is to make people content with being deceived.
"the more one pretends at magic, the more awe and wonder will be found in real life." Arnold Furst
eBooks at https://www.lybrary.com/ken-muller-m-579928.html questions at ken@eversway.com |
|||||||||
|
stoneunhinged Inner circle 3067 Posts
|
Quote:
On 2011-08-14 13:09, funsway wrote: No! No no no no no no no no no! No! Sorry, but... ... ... ... ...NO! |
|||||||||
The Burnaby Kid Inner circle St. John's, Canada 3158 Posts
|
Function: To present some mysterious feat, ranging from acts of skill to demonstrations of supernatural powers to outright impossibilities, and to have the inherent mystery of that feat lodged in their memory.
Structure: Depends on the feat in question. Here are three possibilities that attempt to cover a lot of ground, although there are likely to be more... Single phase effects (eg: card to impossible location, torn and restored napkin). The performer presents state A, followed by a magic moment (a "cause" moment?) followed by state B, and no evidence of something other than what the performer claims to be the mysterious cause between A and B which makes it happen. Multiple phase effects (eg: Miser's Dream, the Ambitious Card). The performer repeats the effect several times, this time giving the spectators chances to formulate specific suspicions ahead of time. Continuous effect (eg: Levitation, linked finger rings). The performer establishes normality of state A, which then enters state B, the performer establishes legitimacy of state B, state returns to state A, with final confirmation that everything is back to normal.
JACK, the Jolly Almanac of Card Knavery, a free card magic resource for beginners.
|
|||||||||
|
Jonathan Townsend Eternal Order Ossining, NY 27300 Posts
|
Quote:
On 2011-08-14 10:06, tommy wrote: What we do so they can go home with a story to tell about what they saw - which sounds like what folks can read in books where there are magicians.
...to all the coins I've dropped here
|
|||||||||
|
Michael Kamen Inner circle Oakland, CA 1315 Posts
|
Subset of functions: To fulfill our calling to perform; to build our self-confidence; to have something to offer, at times, as a gift for others; to have something to barter for food; to kill time in an interesting way; to illustrate the foibles of human perception and assumption; to keep the children quiet for a while; to give the children something to scream about.
General statement of structure: See Whit Hayden's discussions on the Dilemma.
Michael Kamen
|
|||||||||
|
Brad Burt Inner circle 2675 Posts
|
Quote:
On 2011-08-14 13:09, funsway wrote: I don't necessarily disagree with the above, except to say that I think it says too much. I like my original still: The function is to deceive. Now, inevitably will come the qualifications, which are not necessarily bad in and of themselves. But, if you are going to start qualifying then what ever is left out that may be true means you have said too little. Cutting to the core of the thing allows you to focus without equivocation. For instance if one is an entertainer who deceives folks then it's assumed that the qualification: Entertaining is a given. I KNOW that I want to entertain, because I want to do shows and get paid. It's not occult in any way. More, I'm not totally sure that I necessarily want folks to be 'content' to be deceived. For me at least it has the sense that they are not engaged. Ken, may be looking at it totally differently, as I believe he is, but for me it's not a 'strong' and engaged emotion. So, Ken, may wish to give a little explication on how he sees it, etc. Best,
Brad Burt
|
|||||||||
|
tommy Eternal Order Devil's Island 16543 Posts
|
Our magic is, as they say "For Amusement Purposes Only". That is its function and its only function, it seems to me.
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.
Tommy |
|||||||||
|
funsway Inner circle old things in new ways - new things in old ways 9987 Posts
|
If they are content they do not have to seek othee possible explanations -- acceptint eh false dilemma if there is one. The story they tell will be of a magic experience. I they are not content with the deception they will continue to look for alternative causes, including denying htat th event took palce. The story told after wll be one of beiing fooled or duped -- or simply, "That magciain wasn't very good. Deceiving someone is easy -- happens a thousand times a day. A magician wants more -- to have the spectator being glad he was decieved.
Brad, perhaps you are correct that when a person comes to be entertained and knows that you are an entertainer -- that the "contentment factor" can be assumed. The why the concern over proving a prop is solid and the coin unprepared. Possibly the goal is to have the spectators so involved in the developing magic story that they don't realise thy have been deceived, i.e. the perceived actions are normal for the magic world they agreed to enter. I wish I could remember who said something like, "Once magic is accepted as the cause, everything that follows is normal for that journey. To fail to do something magic is now the exception."
"the more one pretends at magic, the more awe and wonder will be found in real life." Arnold Furst
eBooks at https://www.lybrary.com/ken-muller-m-579928.html questions at ken@eversway.com |
|||||||||
BarryFernelius Inner circle Still learning, even though I've made 2537 Posts
|
Quote:
On 2011-08-14 13:09, funsway wrote: I want them to be deceived, and I want them to be entertained, but I'm not seeking to create contentment. If they're contented, they'll forget what happened. I don't want them to forget. I want to leave them a bit discontented with being deceived. I want the whole thing to create both a sense of wonder and a feeling of disturbance. René Lavand expressed this idea as follows: “The kind of magic that I do is really not for amusement, but rather for amazement. I try to amaze the audience, really shock them, choke the audience good and hard... “Not long ago, after one of my shows, a female member of the audience, very cultured and sophisticated (in fact she is a professor of philosophy) said to me in a loud voice, “I can’t stop trying to figure it out,” and I replied, “Don’t become obsessed with figuring it out—just accept it.” An attractive young girl who was sitting next to her, about twenty years old, said, “Oh, my hands are shaking,” and that really gave me satisfaction. Both of them are great admirers of my magic, but as a result of this, both would pay four times as much as they paid for that show to see me a second time. “But I didn’t go there to amuse them. I tried to arouse in them what Freud considered to be the most profound of human emotions, ANGUISH. The anguish felt by those two women and everyone else in the audience who didn’t say anything, but felt the same way, the anguish of not being able to understand when faced with the impact of art.” – René Lavand in the Prologue to the book The Mysteries of my Life
"To achieve great things, two things are needed: a plan and not quite enough time."
-Leonard Bernstein |
|||||||||
|
tommy Eternal Order Devil's Island 16543 Posts
|
Well lets hope he failed.
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.
Tommy |
|||||||||
Bill Hallahan Inner circle New Hampshire 3226 Posts
|
Quote:
On 2011-08-14 18:19, BarryFernelius wrote: I have never liked that quote by Rene Lavand. Perhaps it lost something in the translation. Anguish is, "extreme pain, distress, or anxiety." Anguish is unpleasant. Obsessive curiosity is a drive that isn't generally unpleasant, or at least not extremely unpleasant. I've experienced intense curiosity when I really wanted to know how some magic was done, but it was never extremely unpleasant. I like trying to imagine possibilities. Perhaps some people don't, but I doubt very much they'd like magic if it made them feel real anguish. The point of magic is to make people feel that magic really happened. The curiosity occurs because intellectually they know it didn't, even if it seems to have happened, i.e. Whit Haydn's dilemma. While it's not always possible to suppress everyone's curiosity, I think that facet of magic should be downplayed. I don't, however, think that either telling people, "You really don't want to know" makes much sense. I have seen that done. I believe when people say they want to know, they generally mean it.
Humans make life so interesting. Do you know that in a universe so full of wonders, they have managed to create boredom. Quite astonishing.
- The character of ‘Death’ in the movie "Hogswatch" |
|||||||||
|
tommy Eternal Order Devil's Island 16543 Posts
|
The glorification of the function of our magic does no service to our art. All that does is lead young magicians to misunderstand what our audience is there for. Our audience is there for their amusement and there for their amusement only. Lose sight of that and one starts drifting off into the land of Ken.
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.
Tommy |
|||||||||
|
Brad Burt Inner circle 2675 Posts
|
In fact I don't believe that 'anguish' as we think of it is what Mr. Levand meant. When I first read the quote I did not interpret it in the heavily negative manner that most would. In the context I took it too mean something along the lines of, "Emotions heavily affected by what was seen." A kind of hyper reaction to the sense of the magic, but not actual pain, etc.
Best,
Brad Burt
|
|||||||||
|
Bill Hallahan Inner circle New Hampshire 3226 Posts
|
Brad, that makes sense.
Humans make life so interesting. Do you know that in a universe so full of wonders, they have managed to create boredom. Quite astonishing.
- The character of ‘Death’ in the movie "Hogswatch" |
|||||||||
|
tommy Eternal Order Devil's Island 16543 Posts
|
I think he meant a strong dilemma will cause them some mental discomfort and that was his main aim.
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.
Tommy |
|||||||||
|
BarryFernelius Inner circle Still learning, even though I've made 2537 Posts
|
I, too, was referring to a strong, unforgettable Dilemma. At a recent show, I had caused a signed card to appear in a sealed envelope that was in a zippered compartment of my wallet. The woman who had signed the card simply would not tear the envelope open to remove the card. She was so agitated that her hands were shaking! Her husband tore the envelope open instead.
I don't know if she was in anguish, but the Dilemma had elicited a strong reaction. I don't believe she'll forget what happened. 'Content with being deceived' isn't the goal I'm striving toward. Other performers are free to try to accomplish their own artistic goals, of course.
"To achieve great things, two things are needed: a plan and not quite enough time."
-Leonard Bernstein |
|||||||||
| The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » Food for thought » » The Function and Structure of Our Magic (0 Likes) | ||||||||||
| Go to page 1~2 [Next] | ||||||||||
Posted: Aug 14, 2011 02:06 pm 
| [ Top of Page ] |
|
All content & postings Copyright © 2001-2024 Steve Brooks. All Rights Reserved. This page was created in 0.05 seconds requiring 5 database queries. |
|
The views and comments expressed on The Magic Café are not necessarily those of The Magic Café, Steve Brooks, or Steve Brooks Magic. > Privacy Statement < 
|