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mindhunter Inner circle Upstate NY 2280 Posts |
Just thought I'd throw this out there as both a vent and to get the reactions of both sellers and purchasers of eBooks / other electronic media. This inviolves a recent "discussion" (more like a demand) from a recent customer of mine.
As many here know, I have been extremely fortunate with the success of my eBook "The Safwan Papers," and some of my other indicidual releases as well. I am very happy that this is still selling well even after several years of being on the market. I recently sold a copy to an individual who will remain unnamed. After several back-and-forths regarding him not being able to open the PDF, me sending several copies, etc., I told him I would print out one on my home computer, comb bind it, and send that along with a thumb drive copy to him in the mail. We discovered his Abobe wasn't up to date, so he was finialy able to open it. Many thanks were given for my helping him, offer to mail the items, etc. I thought the transaction was over. Wrong! A couple of days later he emails me and said that he didn't like my "Your Lucky NITE" routine so I need to give him a refund. Needed to. On this eBook. EBOOOOOOK.... Because he doesn't like this one routine. In a book full of routines. Some of those other routines have even been reviewed pretty well here and elsewhere. To be fair, he DID say he purchased the book because of this one routine, but then actually went on to say THIS: "I was under the impression this was your standard banknite routine, so I feel mislead, so I need a refund." STANDARD BANKNITE ROUTINE!!!! Apparently THAT is what he wanted! Well, I'm not going to pat this trick on the back, because obviously I am biased, but this routine has received some decent praise, and I was actually HONORED that RIchard Osterlind thought enough to ask to put his variation of it in one of his books (Mystique.) He thought he was getting a "standard" version that uses a thumb tip. If that is the case, there are already MANY variations of that in print, DVD, etc. Why the heck would you want to buy another one? When I was offering my other, individual, "handmade" physical item, effects, I think I was somewhat unique in offering a money-back offer of they didn't like the effect. Don't like it for any reason at all? Send it back. I am actually trying to recall if anyone ever took me up on it, and if so it was rare, but the guarantee was there. Piece of mind for the purchaser, and I COULD RESELL THE PHYSICAL ITEM AGAIN! But this is an eBOOOOOOOOK! EBOOK!!!! (Doing my best Lewis Black impersonation here...use your imagination.) I explained that the value of mentalism / magic lies in the knowledge (secret) for a large part and that it is rare to expect a refund, even on physical items. But an eBook? Perhaps if he has soft-shoed me a little I may have come to a compromise. I tried to be cordial in my emails explaining my position. But to TELL me I was going to give him a refund or he would file a complaint with his credit card company and "I would be hit with chargeback fees" completely shut me down. Perhaps he WOULDN'T ever perform the routine, or any others in the book, or pass it onto a friend(s) or make it into a torrent, etc. Maybe he would have even deleted it from his computer. But I don't know that, nor honestly even care... To me is the issue of purchasing electronic media, claiming you don't like it, and then DEMANDING a refund. Is this the new norm? Has anyone ever returned a DVD they purchased because they didn't like the hero dying at the end? Returned an album because of one song they didn't like? A video game because you thought X would happen instead of Y? Well, fellow eBook sellers / readers: YOUR thoughts??? Bryn
Bryn D. Reynolds, Author of:
"The Safwan Papers" & "The LOGAR Scrolls" Mentalism ebooks - PM any interest. My artwork: https://darkmountainarts.com |
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eSamuels Inner circle 3085 Posts |
Two thoughts, Bryn....
"Wow!" & "WTF!" |
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Mindpro Eternal Order 10603 Posts |
To me this is a tough one. Initially I would say as many once you buy it you know the info or "goods", you own it, whether you like the material or not.
However, not that I'm defending this guy or siding with him, and I DO NOT feel this way about my order of your product which I very much enjoyed, but there is the growing dilema of so many people putting out such inadequate or crap books and releases, that there should be some recourse or respinsibility for customers not pleased or taken advantage of. I mentioned this is a post a couple of weeks ago about me being only a stage performer and more and more I buy something based on the promotion material hype only to receive it and find it's material for closeup, street or impromptu mentalism, not what I'm seeking for stage. It could be argued that this is a misrepresentation issue, true, but the point remains that I'm stuck with a product that is not useful to me, that I've paid for and can't resell here or on ebay. I'm truy tired of this. At least when you buy a book or physical item, if you don't like it yuo can always return it or try to sell it. So I'm torn on this. As a consumer I should be able to get a refund if I'm not pleased with a purchased product, but I understand the creator's point of view here too. Then there will always be the curious that buy it, learn the effects or "secrets" and then try to return it for their money back once they have the goods. I too have some resources I'd been thinking of releasing but decided against it for the time being due to issues like this. Then this leads me to, okay I could release these as hard copies but then that opens an entire new can of worms with higher costs, pricing, shipping, handling, printing, etc. I can't find a neutral solution. |
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mastermindreader 1949 - 2017 Seattle, WA 12586 Posts |
Hi Bryn-
I'd tell you what you "need" to give him, but my post would be deleted. But you would be doing all of your fellow creators a big favor by letting us know who this idiot is so that we don't make the mistake of selling anything to him. Good thoughts, Bob |
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Rizzo Inner circle East Coast 3349 Posts |
Refund in this situation? Absolutely NOT
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afinemesh Inner circle Senseless gibberish that amounts to 2621 Posts |
Bryn,
It never occurred to me to ask for a refund for even the worst ebook I ever bought (and I have a few), so I'm a little shocked at this request. I'm not sure there's a precedent for the refund of electronic media, so you may not have anything to worry about. I'm sorry this is happening. The Safwan Papers is one of my favorite ebooks! Jorey
"I've always been mental, I'm sure of it" Boris Pocus
"Someday we'll look back on this and it will all seem funny". . .Bruce Springsteen |
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seadog93 Inner circle 3200 Posts |
Quote:
On 2011-09-15 21:36, mastermindreader wrote: That seems to pretty much sum it up!
"Love is the magician who pulls man out of his own hat" - Ben Hecht
"Love says 'I am everything.' Wisdom says 'I am nothing'. Between the two, my life flows." -Nisargadatta Maharaj Seadog=C-Dawg=C.ou.rtn.ey Kol.b |
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Aaron E Special user 756 Posts |
No refund.
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mormonyoyoman Inner circle I dug 5,000 postholes, but I have only 2440 Posts |
IF you decide to refund him (which I suggest NOT) then PLEASE inform everyone here and at the Sanctum (and anywhere else) who he is.
*jeep! & God Bless! --Grandpa
#ShareGoodness #ldsconf
--Grandpa Chet |
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blackpine0008 Regular user 126 Posts |
No, mainly because he bought what he wanted and you gave the proper product.
"For those who believe, no explanation is necessary; for those who do not believe, no explanation will suffice." Joseph Dunninger
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Davit Sicseek Inner circle 1818 Posts |
1. Is the effect in questions 'as described' in the explicit claims you have made in your advertising materials and personal correspondence with him?
2. Does you routine live up to the implied qualities of a piece of mentalism sold in the 'professional' market in that it is workable, of sufficient quality and so on. The answer to number 1 should be easy. Number 2 is something that can be argued over. In principle there is no reason that a refund should not be given for an ebook or any other mentalism product. All this "you already have the secret so you can't have a refund" nonsense is just that - both in my personal ethics and in law. If an effect is not as described or falls short of the implied qualities I perceived to be attached to it then I'm going to push for my money back. I'd do the same in any industry. As for this guy - he sounds like an idiot. Personally I'd tell him he isn't getting a refund. If he wants to try a chargeback let him.
Send me the truth: davitsicseek@gmail.com
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Stefmagic Special user 529 Posts |
YOUR LUCKY NITE – Hopefully, all are worth more than the price of admission, but this one seems to shine with a little more luster: an anytime-anyplace routine with a Bank Night flavor. Those whom I highly respect have said the following about this effect
The description said "with a Bank Night flavor". It never said it's a standard Bank nite routine!!! No refund! |
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WDavis Inner circle 1276 Posts |
Bryn,
When I first released face reading for mentalists I had a similar situation. Where a gentleman was upset and thought he was purchasing something else. I gave him a full refund. My reasoning is this: For me it is not about grabbing a quick buck, it's about adding to this art I love called Mentalism" I offer a money back guarantee on my products as well though I don't advertise it. I stand by them all and truly believe they are all worth the money, yet I still offer the money back guarantee because I know they will be torrented eventually and while I Agree with you they pay for the knowledge contained, I respect them enough to refund them the money if it truly wasn't what they expected. In turn I hope they respect me enough to not pass my product around or submit them to a torrent site. Because I want to believe that since they were honest enough to purchase it in the first place they will be honest enough not to abuse my trust in them. The gentleman I mentioned earlier was the first time a refund request had happened to me, and I put my faith in him and because I know he hasn't betrayed it, I continue to offer the same to others. My best, Walter |
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D_avid Loyal user 253 Posts |
Bryn,
Honestly, was it the fact, or approach? I'm thinking the later. You delivered a product, he received the product. That's business. He asked for a refund. That's customer service. Can't please everyone. Personally I say HELL no, but really it's whatever decision you choose. Why not split the difference and offer "in house credit"? |
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mindhunter Inner circle Upstate NY 2280 Posts |
Ya know, me offering a full refund on my other items such as "BusinessCOIN Prediction," "$," "DOUBLE-DOWN," "ESPnvelope," etc. etc.
WAS INDEED a marketing gimmick. I thought, "well, I'm new, no one else offers a refund on magic secrets...great way to get my name out, etc..." And, I was confident in the effects being solid. I heard great feedback on them, and the only reason I stopped selling them was time availability to make them myself. Hell, I'm going to include the instructions for almost all of them in my next ebook, along with a couple of new items, and keeep the price low, just cause I want my "kids" out there impressing audiances. I'll make a few dollars, and yes, it is an ego thing to small degree to hear people say they got a great reacion from an effect YOU created. But "The Safwan Papers?" Hell, no. Those were my thoughts. No refunds because you don't like ONE EFFECT of several. (Delivered in electronic form, that can be replicated millions of times for free.) No envelopes, casino cards, dollars bills included as in my individual effects. No arts and crafts involved making them either. But still intellectual property, and from what I have heard SOME people actually liked the book. MindPro: I hear ya, and actually chimed in on your thread. That being said, mentalists / magicians have almost unlimited resources now to research effects before purchase, and many avenues to sell them if they don't like them like Ebay, Buy, Sell, Trade foums such as one here, etc. And not for nothing, "The Safwan Papers" has been reviewed the S*** out of, here and elsewhere. Where was one to get a REVIEW of ANYTHING before this place, and others? Word of mouth and monthly periodicals (oh how I LOVED that small IBM magazine and MUM monthly mailbox rush when I was younger!!!! Now when I started out 30 years ago ("old timer" rant here...I'm 39 yrs. old...lol) I had two venues to purchase tricks: that big encyclopedia-sized Tannen's hardback catolog book you HAD TO PAY FOR! (anyone remember THAT?...lol) or the Hank Lee flyer. I bought a lot of effects as my allowance and snow shoveling would allow, mostly garbage, a little was good, but I was stuck with the garbage. Made me a better magician, and hence a better mentalist when I made the switch. Suck it up and drive on....I couldn't even sell it at a lawn sale, as I had to keep my IBM secrets, well, just that. Now? Ebay, sale forums. Want it free? Torrents, cut copy paste into email, etc. This thread wasn't an opinion poll on if I should give a refund. That has been decided. By me. I give no quarter and stand my ground, here and elsewhere (well, on THIS and I contacted PayPal and the lady laughed....she said they have a team of attorneys to defend electronic intellectual property rights. If delvered, sale is completed. Done.) This wasn't about the $30, which I feel Safwan is at least worth...... Larger issue, Gradndpa Chet: IF he had said he had read, and tried out at least two, or three of the effects in TSP, and they were not for him, and is there anything I could do...then I would have worked something out...I think you know me that well. But he got it for ONE effect, that didn't work for him ( but that apparently worked enough to see print in one of MY mentalism hero's books, to be unapologetic, MYSTIQUE) and still threaten me with this...stuck in my craw enough to pen this... I'll burn $20s to light $50s to light my Cohiba cigar, but will be ***ed if I will let this guy get his $30 back. IF so, eBooks are done. Let the market filter out the bad ones. Glad PayPal feels the same....
Bryn D. Reynolds, Author of:
"The Safwan Papers" & "The LOGAR Scrolls" Mentalism ebooks - PM any interest. My artwork: https://darkmountainarts.com |
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equivoque Special user 862 Posts |
I have been a pretty pick consumer of books, dvds and props, so I have few complaints. On a few occasions, I wanted my money back, but then, you must realize that are purchasing the secret(s) and a routine or presentation not a book or prop. Any one with any background in mentalism knows this. The problem is with some (not all) individuals who have, "ordered their act online." These individuals have no background in the art and feel that if there isn't a clever secret or gizmo that does all the work for you, that the item in question is terrible. I have purchase perfectly good props (ebooks, dvds etc) only to discover that they would not work in the performance venue I needed them for, or due to the modus operandi I could not routine them into my act. Did I ask for a refund? No.
This is the very reason that I avoid "prerelease sales." There is a good community of performers willing to share reviews, so I am patient and ask questions. For magicians, the "self levitation" seems to be the Holy Grail and for mentalists it is the ACAAN. So many individuals plop down their hard earned coin on a prerelease for the newest method, "...that can be performed naked, hands off with a borrowed deck of cards purchased by a random spectator," only to be horribly disappointed. In addition, they make these purchase without asking themselves whether or not audience members even care about ACAAN or self levitation effects. A few years back, a few hundred people on the Café bought the newest self levitation only to realize that it had to be performed in a hallway in your socks! OK, what was my point again? Oh yes,"caveat emptor" No refund. In addition, some people would not know a good effect if it bit them on the @ss! |
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mindhunter Inner circle Upstate NY 2280 Posts |
BOB CASSIDY:
DON'T! put ideas in my head, Army Guy....you know we mind-meld...LOL! Kidding, OF COURSE! SICSEEK: Knock it off, you have defense pattent attorney in you and I can read that...lol!!! THese are magic tricks, whose whole lot costs $30. A house with a bad well, I can see....a book of magic tricks, though? Reallly? additional thought????
Bryn D. Reynolds, Author of:
"The Safwan Papers" & "The LOGAR Scrolls" Mentalism ebooks - PM any interest. My artwork: https://darkmountainarts.com |
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John C Eternal Order I THINK therefore I wrote 12968 Posts |
Not a tuff one for me. Ignore him. You did over $30 worth of computer work trying to help him figure out his adobe dilema.
In my opinion he owes you. J |
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John C Eternal Order I THINK therefore I wrote 12968 Posts |
... on second thought, perhaps refund him 50 cents for the trick he didn't like.
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equivoque Special user 862 Posts |
Quote:
Why not split the difference and offer "in house credit"? Why not? Because then you would have to deal with this guy again! |
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