Whoever it is, I hope he reads this thread. Caveat emptor. Let the buyer beware. That's the rule to follow when purchasing secrets. The rule to follow if you're the one selling the secrets to an unreasonable buyer? There's another Latin phrase for that.

You can't unbuy a secret. It's really that simple. No matter how good or bad you think it is.

Yes, it's a gamble with an ebook. I have a number I know I'll probably never look at again or be able to sell or get a refund.
Only once did I voice a major complaint with someone that released a very old trick with nothing at all added but great hype.
I told him of two references from years ago and that there was no reason he needed to release it. He did stop selling it and
offered a refund that I didn't ask for. I'm a little more careful when buying a PDF or download. It's just so easy for someone
to put out a PDF (or DVD), the junk ratio has to be pretty high.

Bryn,
I was just thinking...I would like a refund as well. I noticed a split infinitive in the book...OK actually more than one. I really felt it interfered with my enjoyment. Please send my payment back in nickles. I would like them in two dollar rolls and print your name and address on each roll...(you know, just in case.)

Oh, one more thing...I'm having some computer problems with Adobe. Please give me a call at my convenience and walk me through the necessary steps to fix it.

Hope this puts things in perspective.

Christian

OK, I didn't think that one through!

I also don't think some of the newer guys do much research as to methods that have been around for years that they seem to have just discovered and claim as the big secret of their own. It's terrible when you purchase something, read it and discover it's an old method with standard handling and really offers absolutely nothing new.

does anybody ever state "No refunds" in their promo or upon checkout or ordering info? Just a thought.

Nonsense.

If an effect is so unworkable, so transparent, so unconvincing that it renders it useless as a performance piece then it should have never have been sold. If an effect is marketed by a supposed professional, someone good enough think their ideas are worth paying for, sold in a market where it is the expected standard for things to be 'workable', and for a price that is consistent with other 'workable' effects then it at a very MINIMUM I expect it to be be workable, not overly transparent etc etc.

This is not unreasonable.

When you go to an restaurant it is implied that the food they serve will be edible. If your food comes out with a tablespoons worth of salt dropped on top of it, the restaurant is clearly not fulfilling this implied term. If doesn't matter that the menu didn't explicitly say "food will be edible" - it goes without saying.

Unless explictly stated to the contrary - the same holds for mentalism.

If I complain in the restaurant and the chef says - the food can't be uncooked and you have to pay - I'd laugh!

Sicseek,

You are entitled to a refund if goods are faulty or not as described. There is nothing faulty or not as described about Bryns routine. It has had praise from the best in the business and just wasn't to this guys liking. Next time you buy a movie, try taking it back and saying the story line wasn't quite what you expected and see how far you get with a refund... It just doesn't work that way mate. Same with amazon and ebooks, try getting a refund on one you didn't like...

And as well as explicit terms, there are implied terms (which is what I am referring to). I encourage you to look at implied conditions of condition, quality and fitness for purpose. Most developed jurisdictions have an equivalent of the concept.


Thanks for telling me. I wasn't disputing that fact.

Actually it can do. You have a contract, you claim that there were implied terms that were not met, you convince a court of this fact, you get a refund.


Well amazon give you a 10 minute (as I recall) refund window after any ebook purchase. So probably tens of thousands of people that tried it. Successfully. If the refund window has passed, but you've not even opened the book you can still get a refund if the book is not as described - even if its just implied terms that are being breached. Amazon might not process it. It might mean you'd have to take them to court if you wanted a refund direct from them. Luckily if you buy with a credit card you get great consumer protection - so rather than going to court as wasting time and money - one can just phone their bank.

Edit: Since I'm being generous and see you are also in the UK, here is a relevant document on the UK law, consumer rights and digital products. The word 'implied' appears 128 times. Take a look:
http://www.bis.gov.uk/assets/biscore/con......products

Two points. One, on my "Cellular Forecast" a poster named Fib didn't like it. I generally liked this guys post, had seen a vid of him performing so at least knew he was a pro and because of this I decided (he didn't ask) to refund him. I think Tony Eye had a book out at the same time and the same issue with the poster - the guy just felt that our books were nothing new. He didn't ask for a refund though, it was something I weighed up and decided to do. After that I posted on the wesbite that this was a magic book and as such refunds do not apply.

Zoom forward to this year and the release of my "Abnormal Lift" book. Rave reviews and comments but from one person not so much. I won't name him but he's not a mentalist per se, more of a hypnotist and he has quite a notorious reputation. He bought my book (pre-release ordered it in fact) and for some reason my stomach lurched. 2 or 3 weeks after he contacted me to say he had applied to Paypal for a refund because there was nothing original in the book and he'd done it all before. Nothing original - well some of the best minds in mentalism begged to differ. He's done it all before? Yes, he had written on the lift but only in the most basic terms and there's absolutely nothing in print or video showing him doing the lift the way I describe in the book. Fortunately Paypal saw sense and sided with me after a month of "investigation". The lowest part of this escapade is apparently the ratfink is using the routine from the book as one poster here saw him at a convention and described how he was now doing the lift. Low, cheap, nasty.

I think it's very fair to say that anyone selling a magic ebook should have a standard blurb stating that since the contents of the book are secrets you can't unlearn you must consider carefully your purchase as it's non-refundable. I forgot to do this with the Lift book. Maybe is we bash our heads together we can come up with something suitable?

I can't comment on the legal part of the question, but my instinct tells me that this guy will never be happy, no matter what you do....
I mean, your bank nite routine is awesome, and if he's unable to acknowledge its value this shows where he comes from (mindwise).

What you describe about your efforts to help him out with the technical aspects shows clearly how kind you are, and this is something he's probably wanting to exploit.

I'd say: no refund.
If you do, however, post his name here!

I don't feel that you have a moral obligation to refund him, under the circumstances.

However, I will say that when I worked in a high end retail store we often gave refunds to unreasonable customers when we had no moral or legal obligation to do so. We felt that it was better in the long run to have happy (or less unhappy) customers than to fight over $30 or whatever. Reputation for exceptional customer service (even with unreasonable customers) goes a long way in some markets. This may or may not apply to you in your situation, so I am just throwing it out as an alternative point of view. Best wishes to you either way.

Good point, too.
So it all boils down whether Bryn still has the nerves to communicate with that guy any longer...

And that would be a breach of data privacy laws.

Im not sure this guy asking bryan for a refund has an argument. I think its is a tricky one. Certainly in the UK you can return things in the UK like dvds games etc but only if they are unused. You cannot take an xbox game back because you didn't like it. You can take it back if its faulty and it can be proved.

I will not assume to have read through davids post and the accompanying document about consumers in the uk and electronic media but I'm sure - for us at least - the answers are in there. However special we believe our secrets are and the inheret difficulties in selling such things - they are not, unfortunatley, above the law.

In this guys case though I think he is not entilted to a refund - he knew what he was buying - "a bank nite routine" and that's what was sold. He made an asumption about using a t***b t*p. Despite what david posts about implied terms I don't think that using a t****b t*p as the method is implied anywhere in the selling of a bank night routine. It is but one possible method.

Your book is marketed as your collection of routines and methods nothing more. Also you where clear in your add copy. Having looked at it just now on outlaw I immediatley spotted this:

"The Safwan Papers has several very clever ideas for the serious mentalist. The emphasis is on language ... not props. Your Lucky Nite could be sold as a separate routine." These effects primarily rely on psychological and verbal manipulation, as opposed to focusing on props or gimmicks.


And in the description of the rotuine this:

YOUR LUCKY NITE – Hopefully, all are worth more than the price of admission, but this one seems to shine with a little more luster: an anytime-anyplace routine with a Bank Night flavor.

It is not described as a standard bank night in anyway - the implied terms are clear -Verbal and psychological ploys with a bank night flavoured routine, Your ad copy is clear as to what was expected - I don't think you can have got any fairer than that. I have not got your book but all I can say is that if this is what is delivered in the book and you make good on your promises in the add copy - and it is proved to be of practical use that works in the real world then he does not have any complaint.

The only grounds he has for a refund is if the idea is unworkable. This can only be judged, I think, on the merit of expert opinion. If this guy can present an argument that refutes the position given by many other experts in the field and has the credientials to back up his "expert opinion" then perhaps a refund can be considered. However looking at the opnions of pros in your add copy - again - unless your customer is Derren B, I doubt he can do this.

Send the idiot his money.
He will be never someone. He will be always a loser.
Peopel that ask for a refund on that matter are liers
don't sell anything to him again.

I have one guy on this board that I will never do business with him.

Lior

I've had a similar experience. Recently. Perhaps us creators should exchange names of retards.

I think we should just charge more if they can't keep their own software up to date or at least know the basics of working a computer and the software...

burning down your own house and then saying "no one TOLD ME that I should douse the place in petrol and light a cigar...its the estate agent's fault".

Asking for a refund for The Safwan Papers is ridiculous. This is one of the best ebooks around and brimming with ideas.

Like us all, I have come across some dreadful ebooks and have written off the money spent. However on these occasions I have vowed not to buy from the author again & if others follow suit, then it would deter them from putting out c**p in pursuit of a quick buck.

Sometimes the real secret is that the effect is either crap or rehashed older material. I would just give him his money back if hes not happy. I have bought tons of **** that I will never use. And to be honest I would never have dared to release its so bad. Magic is the only industry where ads can be created that have no or very little resemblance to the product and we are supposed to swallow it. If its an ebook then has cost the seller nothing also.

So anybody that shows any sort of displeasure at something they have been sold is a liar? that's an interesting take on things. Im glad the rest of the consumer rights don't adopt that one.

I don't own the ebook that's the subject of the thread so I am not making any judgements about this product.