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Magnus Eisengrim Inner circle Sulla placed heads on 1053 Posts |
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On 2011-09-21 05:35, Woland wrote: :rotf: very good!
The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere
The ceremony of innocence is drowned; The best lack all conviction, while the worst Are full of passionate intensity.--Yeats |
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Dannydoyle Eternal Order 21219 Posts |
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On 2011-09-20 21:23, LobowolfXXX wrote: Not to quibble, butI was the one who said I fell into that gap, and agree also. Making it even MORE of a big deal. I am one of those people who do fully comprehends my PERSONAL sense of right and wrong may or may not line up with what the state does, or I think a state should do. As I said I can be outraged by whatever on a personal level and think someone may deserve this or that horrible punishment. That is PERSONAL. On a level of society though, it becomes another matter. One which requires more thought and less feeling.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus <BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell |
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landmark Inner circle within a triangle 5194 Posts |
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On 2011-09-20 21:23, LobowolfXXX wrote: :) Just to clarify, I am agreeing that it is a legit position to say that what you wish would happen privately could be different from the power you would assign to the state. Not sure though, that I agree with that position. Do I believe privately in a life for a life? Still pondering that one. But I do agree that there's probably no good way to give that power to the state. Edit: Just read your post Danny. Nicely put.
Click here to get Gerald Deutsch's Perverse Magic: The First Sixteen Years
All proceeds to Open Heart Magic charity. |
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critter Inner circle Spokane, WA 2653 Posts |
Whether you believe in the death penalty or not, it still exists.
"The fool is one who doesn't know what you have just found out."
~Will Rogers |
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LobowolfXXX Inner circle La Famiglia 1196 Posts |
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On 2011-09-21 20:44, landmark wrote: Yeah, it's more of a hypothetical position that we all agree on. Except for Danny.
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley. "...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us." |
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landmark Inner circle within a triangle 5194 Posts |
But the Messiah doesn't arrive until Woland and Chance also agree.
Click here to get Gerald Deutsch's Perverse Magic: The First Sixteen Years
All proceeds to Open Heart Magic charity. |
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Woland Special user 680 Posts |
I'm game. Please explain exactly what it is, with which I am to agree, and I will try.
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Magnus Eisengrim Inner circle Sulla placed heads on 1053 Posts |
Nice to see a thread with "Canadian" in the title make it all the way to the second page.
John
The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere
The ceremony of innocence is drowned; The best lack all conviction, while the worst Are full of passionate intensity.--Yeats |
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gdw Inner circle 4884 Posts |
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On 2011-09-20 23:31, LobowolfXXX wrote: Care to explain how? Also, why is it that people seem to have to concoct virtually, if not literally, impossible scenarios like this to argue my positions? Not that they all are like this, but so many are. How would someone willing to kill a relative for money NOT be a potential threat, and if so, how could we possibly know? As any person willing to kill for money WOULD be a likely threat, then one can see how society would benefit, but in the proposed scenario we impossibly know they are not a future threat, so, how does society benefit from locking such a person up?
"You may say I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one."
I won't forget you Robert. |
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gdw Inner circle 4884 Posts |
Also, thought I would ad that such a scenario would be much more successfully prevented by means other than prison as a deterrent.
It'd be a simple matter to have a clause with those that handle your estate, and the transfer thereof after your death, that stipulates that, if the beneficiary kills you, they don't get anything. They don't exactly hand over life insurance checks to the murderer just because they were also the beneficiary, why would this be any different?
"You may say I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one."
I won't forget you Robert. |
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Magnus Eisengrim Inner circle Sulla placed heads on 1053 Posts |
FWIW Clifford Olson, one of Canada's most notorious serial killers is apparently on his deathbed. It brings out a range of emotions. Nobody's sad to see him die. Many wish suffering on him. Many wish the state had done 20 years ago what nature is doing today. And many just want to forget.
Capital punishment remains difficult, emotional and divisive, even when you don't do it. John
The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere
The ceremony of innocence is drowned; The best lack all conviction, while the worst Are full of passionate intensity.--Yeats |
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LobowolfXXX Inner circle La Famiglia 1196 Posts |
I gotta say, G, it's not really like you to duck an answer like this.
As for the societal benefit, I think it's intangible, but basically stems from the knowledge that bad actions have consequences; that you can't kill someone with impunity; that even if on an individual level you're unknown and you don't have monetary value to anyone, society recognizes that you have a worth that goes beyond the financial impact of your death or the loss to your immediately family...that a crime against you was a crime against society at large.
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley. "...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us." |
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balducci Loyal user Canada 227 Posts |
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On 2011-09-22 09:33, gdw wrote: Are we talking about the hypothetical insurance example? Then, in response to your questions: Fraudulent insurance claims hurt society (i.e., because they make other people's cost of insurance go up; likewise, taxes would go up because it would cost more for cities and governments to insure their property). So society does benefit. The scenario is only impossible today because the government (most governments, anyway) imposed laws making it illegal for someone to receive an insurance benefit on somebody they killed.
Make America Great Again! - Trump in 2020 ... "We're a capitalistic society. I go into business, I don't make it, I go bankrupt. They're not going to bail me out. I've been on welfare and food stamps. Did anyone help me? No." - Craig T. Nelson, actor.
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Woland Special user 680 Posts |
Since the topic on the execution of Troy Davis is now locked, I will ask here, do you think Ann Coulter (a lawyer) has her facts right -- particularly regarding what testimony was and was not actually recanted?
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or decades, liberals tried persuading Americans to abolish the death penalty, using their usual argument: hysterical sobbing. I'm still not 100% sure with what exactly I am expected to agree (see posts, above), but I think I can truthfully say that I agree with landmark that certain actions which I think would be desirable when performed by individuals should not be carried out by the State. If that is sufficient to indicate agreement with landmark, Lobowolf, and gdw, then let the Messiah come! By the way, the Marquis de Sade had a discussion of the death penalty very much along those lines, somewhere, which might have been taken up in the Peter Weiss play, that is, a killing committed by an individual in the heat of passion is very different from a killing soberly decided upon by the representatives of the State. He was in favor of the former, against the latter. |
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jugglestruck Inner circle Wales 1038 Posts |
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I notice that the people so anxious to return this sociopathic cop-killer to the street don't live in his neighborhood. Just for the record, when I started the Troy Davis post I never suggested returning him to the streets and to my knowledge this has not been put forward by others either. It seems a very knee jerk reaction to say that because someone is not going to be executed they should automatically be released from custody. There may be doubt surrounding his conviction but this does not necessarily make him innocent. |
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LobowolfXXX Inner circle La Famiglia 1196 Posts |
I agree that rhetorically, she's over-the-top (how very unlike Coulter), but logically, this point makes perfect sense. The sentence for the crime was the death penalty. The standard of certainty pertains to his conviction, not his sentence (as Chance pointed out earlier). If he was guilty beyond a reasonable doubt, then the sentence was appropriate. The (purported) justification for protesting his execution was that his guilt was not certain beyond a reasonable doubt; if that's the case, he shouldn't have been convicted at all, and there would have been no basis for keeping him in prison.
It seem "knee-jerk" to say it when nobody else is, but the reason it wasn't being said was because it was an easier sell for his supporters to try to prevent the execution than to publicly say we should let him go. But surely nobody who believed that his guilt was certain beyond a reasonable doubt wanted him kept in prison?
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley. "...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us." |
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Woland Special user 680 Posts |
Very cogent, Lobo.
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jugglestruck Inner circle Wales 1038 Posts |
I hear what you are saying but I think that sometimes life is just not that straightforward.
This was a pretty impossible situation and I think the death penalty was not appropriate in this case. I do not think that releasing him was an option either. I feel it would have been better to reach a compromise and keep him locked up rather than killing him. This way he would not die and would also not be on the streets. I realise there would be hard core supporters on both sides, one set demanding his death and the other saying that if the execution does not go ahead than what right is there to keep him jailed but the majority would be appeased. I sometimes feel that common sense must prevail in certain cases. I fully realise that this is not a legal argument but whatever course of action happens there will always be people left with a grievance. |
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balducci Loyal user Canada 227 Posts |
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On 2011-09-22 13:09, LobowolfXXX wrote: His supporters were certainly focusing on his execution recently, as it approached. But were they always? Or were they earlier calling for his outright release until they realized that would not happen in the time remaining and that a stop to the execution was all that they could hope for?
Make America Great Again! - Trump in 2020 ... "We're a capitalistic society. I go into business, I don't make it, I go bankrupt. They're not going to bail me out. I've been on welfare and food stamps. Did anyone help me? No." - Craig T. Nelson, actor.
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balducci Loyal user Canada 227 Posts |
Coulter is certainly rhetorically over the top, but she is also guilty of misrepresenting facts of the case (e.g., about the witnesses).
Make America Great Again! - Trump in 2020 ... "We're a capitalistic society. I go into business, I don't make it, I go bankrupt. They're not going to bail me out. I've been on welfare and food stamps. Did anyone help me? No." - Craig T. Nelson, actor.
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