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dantitmussmagic New user 25 Posts	Posted: Sep 27, 2011 09:57 am 0 Yeah I guess that's right, a right and a wrong place for everything. And yes the danger of a DVD for a beginner like myself is imitating the performers too much. I'm not too bad, and tend to put my own patter/spin on everything I do, but some people I know literally just imitate everything down to the last line of patter, emphasis and even accent!
Chatterbox41 Veteran user Atlanta, Georgia 349 Posts	Posted: Sep 27, 2011 07:58 pm 0 This has become a very interesting topic! As I said above, I love books. But I agree when learning sleights it helps to see it in action. I remember trying to learn a turnover pass. Just couldn't get it from Expert Card Technique. But then I got a VHS on the pass that included that particular variation. It was like someone turned on a light switch for me. Another point, sometimes I think reading about a sleight I get a little too perfect of an idea of what it's supposed to look like. I remember buying a book and working on the authors version of the click pass... just couldn't seem to get it to look innocent and make it work consistantly. Then the author came out with a VHS of the book... his move didn't look any better with him doing it. Just his misdirection was better! Taught me a lot. But still glad I took the time with the book. And I think being one of the ones who started out before the advent of video, we can get pretty proud of our libraries and what's on the shelf... not that DVD's aren't a part of the library... just that the book is complete in itself without needing something to view it on, etc. Guess I'm older than I thought! Gary
Hansel Inner circle Puerto Rico 2492 Posts	Posted: Sep 27, 2011 11:10 pm 0 I absolutely agree...Very good and interesting points of view in this topic! About learning difficult sleights in books or DVDs...well, If I read the book and don't understand quite well the sleight, I search a DVD...Learn the move and then go again to the book and re-read the instructions for the sleight! Thanks, -H Follow Me... Facebook: https://m.facebook.com/Hansels-Comedy-and-Magic-Show-929625643774678/ Youtube: HanselSP Twitter: @HanselSP Instagram: HanselSP
TheAmbitiousCard Eternal Order Northern California 13425 Posts	Posted: Sep 27, 2011 11:47 pm 0 I love both but I find myself going back and back and back to the book. I rarely re-watch a DVD once I've learned a trick. When learning one particularly difficult trick from a book, and after I'd practiced it many many many times, I eventually came across a video that had the trick. I was shocked at how smoothly and effortlessly the trick was executed. The book never came close to relaying that information to me. However, after seeing the video once, I never went back to re-watch for any further info. Always back to the book. Always! That's where the gold is!!! www.theambitiouscard.com Hand Crafted Magic Trophy Husband, Father of the Year Candidate, Chippendale's Dancer applicant, Unofficial World Record Holder.
Hansel Inner circle Puerto Rico 2492 Posts	Posted: Sep 29, 2011 01:10 pm 0 Frank: I think we get the same feeling! My actual case, I learn the Elmsley count from a book....found it a little difficult, but well I think I get it! I watch a video by Aldo Colombini where he explain the Elmsley and I correct certain points, but YES! I got back to the book!!!! -H Follow Me... Facebook: https://m.facebook.com/Hansels-Comedy-and-Magic-Show-929625643774678/ Youtube: HanselSP Twitter: @HanselSP Instagram: HanselSP
magicofrovin New user 11 Posts	Posted: Oct 11, 2011 10:05 pm 0 The best way of learning is from a book,dvd feeds our eyes, but books nourishes our mind.
soybntree New user 55 Posts	Posted: Oct 12, 2011 09:57 pm 0 Its very important to me that my first read is out of enjoyment if I need the enjoyment to be movitated to later re read and study the text
Chessmann Inner circle 4246 Posts	Posted: Oct 13, 2011 12:00 am 0 Quote: On 2011-09-26 12:57, IllusionsMichael wrote: As a librarian's son, avid reader, owner of 40 magic books, and 30 DVDs, the correct answer in this debate is of course "a healthy mix". There are things that DVDs have conveyed to me in less than 5 seconds that would have taken me weeks of reading, and trial and error. And there are bad habits I've picked up from DVDs that a sentence of text could have avoided. I have a hunch that the adamant "pro-bookers" are simply lovers of the idea of books; their aesthetic and nostalgic qualities, the crinkle of the cover, the smell of the pages. That's fine, but realize that human knowledge and experience is what's valuable, not ink and paper. A book is only valuable in how well it generates that knowledge or that experience. If a DVD does it better, than it's more valuable than a book and of course visa versa. To me, this is the best post in this topic. My ex-cat was named "Muffin". "Vomit" would be a better name for her. AKA "The Evil Ball of Fur".
Chessmann Inner circle 4246 Posts	Posted: Oct 13, 2011 12:04 am 0 Quote: On 2011-09-26 13:22, RS1963 wrote: Here is one way that learning from a book is quicker. Lets use Dai Vernon's triumph as an example. I take Stars of Magic off my bookshelf look at the contents find the page number and bam I'm there. You have to get the DVD of Ammar's or DVD turn on the machine. push the button to open where the DVD goes put the DVD in wait for Real player or whatever to open then you have to click on menu and select performance or explanation etc. All this has probably taken you a minute or more. Meanwhile I'm already reading the last part of how to execute the shuffle. I must say, this was the very last argument I expected to hear (from either side) in the "Books are Better than DVDs" debate. My ex-cat was named "Muffin". "Vomit" would be a better name for her. AKA "The Evil Ball of Fur".
Chessmann Inner circle 4246 Posts	Posted: Oct 13, 2011 12:05 am 0 Quote: On 2011-09-26 13:29, bblumen wrote: My books will be here for hundreds of years. Electronic media, not so much. Of course it will. The tide is turning even now. It is just a matter of time. Why do I sense that a remake of "Fahrenheit 451" coming? My ex-cat was named "Muffin". "Vomit" would be a better name for her. AKA "The Evil Ball of Fur".
Douglas.M Elite user 465 Posts	Posted: Oct 13, 2011 12:20 am 0 The best of both worlds would be something like this: DVD's could come with printable PDF's containing the basic step-by-step breakdown of the moves and patter. Books could come with supplemental video. Actually this is exactly what John Bannon did with his Royal Scam DVD. I never referred to the DVD after printing the PDF; it was quicker to glance at a page to see where I was hung up, although the DVD was helpful for getting the overall presentation and John's tips, etc. When I received Larry Barnowsky's book 21st Century Coin Magic, it came with a CD-ROM containing invaluable clips of key moves. I also purchased the CD-ROM version of Roberto Giobbi's Card College from Lybrary.com. The CD contains the original text and illustrations from his book in html, but it also contains embedded video clips of Giobbi performing key moves. It has elements of both book (text/graphics) and video. The answer isn't Book VS Video, but maybe a happy marriage of both. Douglas M.
billmarq Special user State near Arizona 570 Posts	Posted: Oct 13, 2011 04:51 am 0 I am not sure that my opinion is important but I have to say that I really love owning books. Having a hard copy of a book just seems to make it more real to me. I am no Luddite. I probably spend more time on the computer and internet than 90% or more of the rest of you here. I just like having that thing on my shelf and in my hands. I realize that the day is coming when all "written" material is digitally available and perhaps without material existence. I will survive the transformation, but I don't have to like it. For the moment, I would like to see all instructional magic books in hardcopy editions with a supporting DVD or internet video available to owners. Some magical maneuvers are better demonstrated in video than in written form. That is a fact. Just don't take away my real books, please. Kindle and eBooks or iBooks are wonderful but they just do not replace the real thing. Honi soit quit mal y pense.
Douglas.M Elite user 465 Posts	Posted: Oct 14, 2011 12:44 am 0 I agree with you billmarq, I love my books and I would never part with them. In the age of so many people learning from DVD-only, the people with magic libraries have so much more information, history, and "magical ammunition" at hand. Magic books often leave the presentational aspects of a routine up the reader, forcing the reader to be creative and to play with the routine. DVD's tend to make it too easy for the viewer to merely ape the exact same presentation as done by the instructor. I could be wrong, but I think this is why you have so many people doing the exact same rote presentations (ugh, just look at YouTube). However, I do believe that print and electronic media have the potential to augment each other. "There is no friend as loyal as a book" -Ernest Hemingway
Chessmann Inner circle 4246 Posts	Posted: Oct 14, 2011 12:58 am 0 Quote: On 2011-10-13 20:44, Douglas.M wrote: Magic books often leave the presentational aspects of a routine up the reader, forcing the reader to be creative and to play with the routine. DVD's tend to make it too easy for the viewer to merely ape the exact same presentation as done by the instructor. The thought above is often mentioned to support the 'books are better' side of the coin. Let's not forget that the opposite side of the coin applies. To paraphrase from the above (not necessarily arguing against it): Magic books often leave the presentational aspects of a routine up to the reader, leaving them with little to no understanding of what basic presentation/misdirection/showmanship even is. DVD's, by allowing the student of magic to see a competent professional at work, learns valuable lessons in presentation, misdirection, and working with a real audience. I would agree with Douglas that both books and visual media are great, and neither should be denigrated by either book-snobs or dvd-snobs. My ex-cat was named "Muffin". "Vomit" would be a better name for her. AKA "The Evil Ball of Fur".
Pop Haydn Inner circle Los Angeles 3691 Posts	Posted: Oct 14, 2011 01:01 am 0 I think the digital book is the answer. Written words with explanatory or demonstrative videos embedded. The Three Card Monte book I wrote, would have been killer if the numerous photos could have become video at a touch. The ability to hear and see the conmen working on the street, or to watch a short clip of the hype being done, or see a performance of an exhibition routine, at the appropriate place in the text, would have made an unbeatable combination. It will be the way of the future as Ipad and Kindles take over from printed text. I think the DVDs are fine, though, and don't worry about people copying the style of the author. I learned from live teachers and copied them slavishly. DVDs would have given me a much better variety of people to copy. The more different styles you have to copy, the faster they merge into your own unique style. It took me a long time to quit sounding like my yankee teachers. Pop Haydn Website Cleopatra's Sphere of Destiny History
bbarefoot Regular user Johnstown, PA 122 Posts	Posted: Oct 14, 2011 02:37 pm 0 I like learning from a book over dvd for many reasons. DVDs are usually 25 to 40 dollars for one or two tricks, for that price a good book will teach me so much more. Books also tend to have less performance bias to them allowing me to adapt the trick to my performance persona. Plus, reading helps spark my imagination and creativity so that I can create my own routines. Bradley
Chatterbox41 Veteran user Atlanta, Georgia 349 Posts	Posted: Oct 15, 2011 10:51 pm 0 Quote: On 2011-10-13 21:01, Pop Haydn wrote: I think the digital book is the answer. Written words with explanatory or demonstrative videos embedded. The Three Card Monte book I wrote, would have been killer if the numerous photos could have become video at a touch. The ability to hear and see the conmen working on the street, or to watch a short clip of the hype being done, or see a performance of an exhibition routine, at the appropriate place in the text, would have made an unbeatable combination. It will be the way of the future as Ipad and Kindles take over from printed text. I think the DVDs are fine, though, and don't worry about people copying the style of the author. I learned from live teachers and copied them slavishly. DVDs would have given me a much better variety of people to copy. The more different styles you have to copy, the faster they merge into your own unique style. It took me a long time to quit sounding like my yankee teachers. As usual, Pop, an interesting and plausible response. Embedded videos in an ebook would be the best of both worlds and your correlation between DVD's and live teachers is something to think about. Bravo! Gary
inigmntoya Inner circle DC area native, now in Atlanta 2351 Posts	Posted: Oct 17, 2011 12:27 am 0 Quote: On 2011-09-26 13:22, RS1963 wrote: Here is one way that learning from a book is quicker. Lets use Dai Vernon's triumph as an example. I take Stars of Magic off my bookshelf look at the contents find the page number and bam I'm there. You have to get the DVD of Ammar's or DVD turn on the machine. push the button to open where the DVD goes put the DVD in wait for Real player or whatever to open then you have to click on menu and select performance or explanation etc. All this has probably taken you a minute or more. Meanwhile I'm already reading the last part of how to execute the shuffle. I have to respectfully disagree. The above comment is a lot like saying it's a slow process to listen to music on a CD while ignoring that MP3s exist. I have all my videos instantly accessible at the click of a mouse on my computer, and can carry more than I can watch in a day in my phone and/or iPod (videos converted to MP4 format via Handbrake).
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