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Matt Adams Special user Harvest, AL 827 Posts 
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To think of it in another example...each of us buy knock-off products every day. We buy knock-off cereal, drugs, personal items, etc. But we don't see a moral dilemma there. Why not? Is it simply because it's a corporation that's selling the knock-off instead of an individual? Or maybe because it's only hurting the original corporation who "invented" the product and it's not actually hurting an individual with whom we can more easily relate? Right is right. Period. Wrong is wrong. Period. If we REALLY thought it was wrong to buy knock-offs, I'd think it'd apply to all areas of our lives, but I seriously doubt that's the case. We see it as "wise spending habits" to buy cheap. But by the only arguments I've ever heard from magic forums, this would be stealing.
(Remember, I DO support the creators...this is simply for discussion to help us all gain a better understanding of the beliefs we tout.)
Website: www.MattAdamsMinistries.com
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Ray Pierce Inner circle Los Angeles, CA 2604 Posts
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Hey Matt!
Typically the ethics discussions fall into another category on this board and are discussed at length there, so that would really be a better place to gain insight into magical ethics. That being said I don't believe you HAVE to adhere to the rule, but then again you don't have to be accepted in any shared group. In addition to the many performers in magic, there are people who spend an amazing amount of time creating, developing, work shopping and perfecting magic ideas for us all. It is fairly simple to understand that there is value in this work they do. Rather than going to the trouble of spending the sometimes years of time necessary to accomplish this ourselves, it is frequently easier to use the ideas of others. To be fair, the creators of those ideas should be compensated for the work and time they have put in to save us the time of doing the same thing. Many times they are accomplishing things that we could have never come up with even if we had all the time in the world. You might be in an isolated area and have no reason to ever work with anyone else in magic. You might never need the assistance of anyone else in this field to work your entire life. On the other hand if you do, it would be nice to have a good reputation for behaving ethically as most others in the field do. In a nutshell, magicians as a whole tend to be a social group. You can go into any city in the country, find some local magicians and you'll typically be welcomed with open arms. If on the other hand you have a reputation for taking ideas that aren't yours and knocking off other's effects with no consideration or compensation... It would be fair that you would not be as welcome. Again, if I leave a swaying or chair on my front porch and it's not locked down or secured, is it okay to take? Maybe legally but not ethically. I know the laws regarding private property and this is just an example. There are a few people on here who made their position very clear on stealing material from others without compensating them and they are here as this is a public forum but I have no desire to engage them in a discussion. It is always your choice and in those choices we are defined as principled moral human beings. For most professionals in magic we work within the ethical boundaries of what is normally accepted in this field. If someone comes up with an idea they should be compensated for that idea if we decide to use it. It doesn't matter if he has a piece of paper or other document... we do it because it is the right thing to do. There are people around the world who argue that if an idea is not copyrighted or patented they have the right to take it. They do but then we have the right not to accept them as a peer and share ideas with them. In fact most are ostracized and viewed in a very negative light. This impacts their dealings with builders, consultants, and other professionals in the field. Yes ideas have value and merit. In some fields they must be protected and guarded legally, but in magic we like to think we have a gentleman's agreement to protect each other in the brotherhood. In another thread I mentioned that it was like having some nice statuary in your front yard. Neighbors watch out for each other and protect each other's interest as they have a shared benefit. What if someone from the outside came in and decided to steal something from your front yard? After all it's out in the open, it's not locked down, no one said you couldn't take it. Just because you can doesn't make it right. I hope this makes a little sense, at least it did to me when I wrote it!
Ray Pierce
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Matt Adams Special user Harvest, AL 827 Posts
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That makes a lot of sense Ray. To sum it up - if you want to be widely accepted in the magic community, play nice. I could totally appreciate that stand. I suppose I bristle a bit when people attack others and call it stealing. It's only defined as "stealing" because it's "widely accepted in the magic community to be so." So THAT is the "rule" I was looking for, so to speak. It's not stealing to the rest of the world, so I suppose if we are ok being ostracized by our "magic friends" then we could support knock-offs. Makes a lot more sense.
I may browse the other threads you mentioned for more insight later. I enjoyed THIS discussion because you guys were all reasonable without calling me a thief and attacking my Christianity just because you believe I'm stealing by previously buying and using a knock-off.  Doesn't work too well to call names and not explain why. It's similar to trying to convert someone to Christianity. The "hell fire and brimstone" approach is tactless. To tell someone straight up that they are going to hell just makes people mad. But when you present God's law and show how we have all broken it, then people have a much better understanding of WHY God would send a person to hell. There's a basis for the accusation. Anyway, cool thoughts you gave. Thanks again.
Website: www.MattAdamsMinistries.com
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Matt Adams Special user Harvest, AL 827 Posts
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PS - of course the "God sending a person to hell" isn't the whole message. Haha, I was just drawing a parallel. God delights in saving! If you are curious as to how that works, feel free to PM me.
Website: www.MattAdamsMinistries.com
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The Drake Inner circle 2274 Posts
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Quote:
On 2011-10-13 17:46, Matt Adams wrote: Hi Matt, Interesting discussion to say the least. I'd like to address a few of your comments if I may. Firstly.. Losander does combine OTHER PEOPLES ideas .. YES.... but did you know he pays a commission for those ideas. He pays Tommy Wonders Estate a fee for each table sold. That is a fact. I don't agree that you can't steal an idea. When an idea is created it EXISTS and therefore can be stolen. If I had an idea for a book an wrote the novel of all novels and you read it before I had a chance to publish it and then had it published yourself that would indeed be stealing. You could say... I didn't steal the physical book! but it would still be theft. Actually many times people have sued because someone else stole their idea and have won in court so in a sense the law also agrees that you can steal an idea. Losander didn't discover an existing thing like gravity... he created something new. Anyone who says different is not acknowledging the special elements that Losander added to an existing gimmick to make it new. Of course I can't discuss them here but you discovered one of them when you got the legit Losander. 
I don't think magicians use ethics as a way to stay popular with other magicians. I think good behaviour is just that.... good behaviour. I wouldn't cheat with my neighbours wife. And not just so others will like me down at the bowling alley..... I don't cheat with her because its wrong. Legal yes... but wrong. I could say.... Hey... she agrees to it so its ok as I am not married to her but there would be a victim (s) in the picture some place which makes it wrong from the start. The same goes for a Losander Table. Each knockoff victimizes both Losander and all those who paid the price to own an original ensuring the creator got his due share. Regards protecting an idea legally or not..... I am reminded of a friend who told me about a guy he went to school with. They were walking home from school and he saw a walkman ( yes this was years ago before ipods) on the front seat of a car as they passed by. The window was open so the guy grabbed it and walked off. When my friend asked him why he did that the answer was... " Well .. it was just sitting there and if the owner didn't want it stolen he should have protected it better and not left the window open." Yes he actually said that... it was a case of shifting the blame on the owner of the walkman. For whatever reason the owner had to leave the window open and not protect the walkman it was not an invitation or excuse to justify someone stealing it. For the record. I don't think you are a hypocrite. I think you are wrong in your line of thinking and hope you come around in the long run. It is for that reason I even bother to type this. There are many others I wouldn't waste the effort on . With you I don't think its a waste. Best, Tim |
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SpellbinderEntertainment Inner circle West Coast 3519 Posts
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--We don’t buy “knock-off” cereals (at least I don’t) there is a differentiation between “generic” and knock-off, first many brand companies duplicate their products in their own generic form, it gives them two products and two price points, second cornflakes are not registered, trademarked, or copyrighted foods.
--I’m starting to believe you are hiding behind nitpicking and splitting hairs with definitions, you request widely understood words to be defined in detail, and take up tiny bits of information to prove your view. --Losander not only pays fairly for his rights, but worked with permission of Wonder during his lifetime. Their product is unique and one-of-a-kind. No Spirit Table ever actually floating in anything close to this method. No floating ball method had ever been used with this large an everyday object before, many of the moves were innovative and original, for instance the spinning move and the peek move. They did not reinvent the wheel, few do, but they brought so many wheels into play so as to be totally original in concept and delivery. --Cheap things fall apart as a rule, they generally mimic, not achieve the quality of the original they knock-off. --No need to answer, one can lead a horse to water but one cannot make him drink/ I am so very happy that I do not attend your christian church or any other that so stretches generally accepted rules for living and accepted standards of behavior. I am so over this now. All has been said and rehashed now. Walt |
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Matt Adams Special user Harvest, AL 827 Posts
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I agree 100% with everything you just wrote.
To clarify my position - You CAN steal an idea (exactly as you described above). Just because something is legal doesn't make it right - you can ALWAYS appeal to the Scriptures with me. Just because it's not "legally" wrong to sleep with another man's wife, it's morally wrong because God says so. I wasn't clear on these before, but I wanted to be clear here. Ok...so let me ask this - I obviously agree 100% with what you said. But I think the actual POINT of theft is in question here. What I mean is this - Obviously if I stole Losander's idea at any point in the creation process, created my own version, and started selling it, then I could see that as stealing. But that's not really what's happening here. What's happening is that someone ELSE stole it. They broke the moral code there. Since it's not illegal, they aren't punished (by man, at least). Now they start selling it. Enter me, the consumer. It gets tricky here because I guess I'd technically be supporting thieves if I buy the knock-offs they sell! But we do it everyday with larger corporations when we buy knock-off products. So you can get really extreme with the details like, "I'm not shopping at Wal-mart because they sell knock-off products." We'd die. Haha. So how do we draw a reasonable line? It's MUCH more difficult for a little ole magician who's created a cool effect like a floating table than for a huge corporation (say Apple). If someone rips off an Apple idea legally (however that would work), then Apple isn't going to be doomed because they have tons of products. But if someone steals an idea from a magician who has ONE product, it's really bad. (I'm not arguing right/wrong. I think both cases here are wrong, FYI. Just talking about impact.) You're helping me think through this better than anyone I've talked to before on the issue. Like I said, usually it just ends up in them calling me names because I don't understand their position. Heh.
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Matt Adams Special user Harvest, AL 827 Posts
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On 2011-10-14 11:52, SpellbinderEntertainment wrote: Exactly why you cannot convert people who buy knock-offs. Attacking their faith/church/personal values/etc. is not the best approach. I believe you are scared of actually facing a logical person who doesn't share your viewpoint. Just because you believe extremely strongly on a subject doesn't make you right. That's why I engage in these discussions because I COULD be wrong. I don't think I am...just like you don't think you are. But I'm willing to look inside and analyze WHY I believe what I believe and WHY I act the way I do. I'd encourage you to do the same.
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Matt Adams Special user Harvest, AL 827 Posts
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On 2011-10-14 12:05, Matt Adams wrote: This was in response to Tim, not Walt, obviously.
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The Drake Inner circle 2274 Posts
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Quote:
On 2011-10-14 12:05, Matt Adams wrote: Hello Matt, Good to see you are at least looking at options. I have to address a few things you said however. Whether or not a person stolen from is doomed because of the theft is a moot point. Wrong is wrong. If I had that affair with my neighbours wife and he never found out then he wouldn't be doomed but it would still be wrong. The first line a kid tells himself when he first thinks about shoplifting is... " Its a big company and it won't hurt them." Of course we all know that the combined shoplifting of all the thieves does add up and we the consumer pay higher prices for it. I also disagree with the " but I didn't steal it..... I just bought it" argument. If I buy stolen goods from a thief then I am not only supporting his efforts and encouraging him to continue to steal but I am also a participant in the theft. Here's a novel way to stop all thefts world wide... NOBODY buy stolen goods. Then there would be no market for stolen good thus no reason to supply that market. How bout that ? If only it were that simple. LOL For the record I have seen people suffer from having an act stolen. How would you like to go on stage at a sales convention for the evening show and bomb with an act that not only did you create based on years of trial and error but one that has always been very successful for you. When you ask the client for thoughts on why the audience was not responsive the client says... " Maybe its because the guy we had entertain last night did the exact same act word for word." Yes... this really happened.. not to me but to someone else. Best, Tim |
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Matt Adams Special user Harvest, AL 827 Posts
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Quote:
On 2011-10-14 12:19, The Drake wrote: Again, I agree with all that. I was trying to rectify in my mind how buying knock-off products from Wal-mart, for instance, is ok. But I suppose the main argument is as follows: Creator comes up with magic effect. Creator sells effect. Effect gets ripped off (STOLEN!). Thief sells magic effect. Consumer buys stolen goods. Regardless of the widespread distribution of stolen goods, they are still stolen intellectual property. Even if it's not easy to protect by man-made laws, it's stealing an idea and stealing is wrong. Buying known stolen goods is supporting stealing and is also wrong. Man...I'm really close to being a "believer" - haha. My final sticking point is this: Theft of an idea - who defines this? The Bible was plain and simple with "Thou shalt not steal." But it's man who's come up with these set of laws/rules about what that really means in regards to intellectual property. It'd be easy for me if I could point to either the Bible OR a man-made law that says stealing an idea is wrong...but in this case it's not mentioned in Scriptures AND man-made laws don't cover the intellectual theft used to create knock-off magic effects. So one argument would be to abstain from ALL appearance of evil. If so many people have such an issue with it, even if I don't, then I probably shouldn't partake just for the sake of not offending another. But I'd love to be able to really peg it and say...hey, it's defined as stealing right here in " _____ " and give a reference. If it were that easy though, probably more people would be on board with NOT supporting knock-offs. Do you have any thoughts on who defines this theft of an idea in regards to knock-offs? It sounds like it's just something our "magic community" has made up to try to help protect the creators. What do you think?
Website: www.MattAdamsMinistries.com
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Ray Pierce Inner circle Los Angeles, CA 2604 Posts
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Magicians form a society. As in all societies there tends to be a consensus among most people as to the rules and ethics that they will live by. Some of these are written down, some are simply learned as you rise through the ranks as a member of the society. I think we can all agree that some ideas have value. That is why some people go to the trouble to patent them, trademark them and legally protect them any way they can via public documents. As we know magicians tend to be a more secretive organization and avoid public documents as it potentially exposes the method to a wider audience. As a subset of the larger society, we have formed our own rules and ethics to treat the problem internally. If you talk to any of the top professionals you will typically find a fairly even consensus about stealing ideas. They understand the value of these ideas and because they also understand the value of our society they play by the rules we have established whether written down or not. Does it still happened? Of course and in those cases they get called on their actions and judged accordingly. I know many well-known magicians who've had their share of controversy and typically will do their best to make good in the situation to sustain a positive reputation in the community.
I know it is very easy to say that it is stealing only if you take an idea that is patented or legally protected in some way. That is a prime example of following the letter of the law but not the spirit of the law. Who defines the theft of an idea? We all do. We discuss, debate and reach a consensus in our society. It then becomes an accepted standard if most people agree with it. This is the very essence of situational ethics.
Ray Pierce
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The Drake Inner circle 2274 Posts
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On 2011-10-14 13:31, Matt Adams wrote: Hi Matt, I'd define "theft of an idea" unauthorized duplication of an idea that didn't exist before the originator created it. When a comedian comes up with a trendy new punchline that knocks them dead and was never heard before then its HIS and others using that material are stealing it. I'd call that theft of an idea. You'll find many want to blur those lines however in their own defence of using it. Lets say that the comedian makes a joke about his mother in law being president of Justin Beibers Fan club. He does his own timing and delivery of it and its new. Other comedians will steal that line and when they are confronted they will say... " Oh c'mon..... comedians have been doing jokes about mother in law's for years!" In fact that very same joke never existed before the first comedian used it and it remains his. The same goes for magicians. I've had many friends of mine use an original line in a show that kills and I'll ASK them... " Mind if I use that?" Sometimes they say SURE and sometimes they say.. Please don't. I respect their answer because I see it no different than if they have a prop and I ask them if I can borrow or use it in my show. Its there property regardless if its an idea or a physical prop. I've heard many say a Losander table is a table with a Zombie Gimmick and its nothing new as things have been Zombified for a long time. In fact the Tommy Wonder Gimmick WAS new to the magic world when Tommy created it. It was no ordinary Zombie. In addition to that Losander added a few unique touches to it that never existed on a zombie gimmick. Best, Tim |
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Matt Adams Special user Harvest, AL 827 Posts
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On 2011-10-14 13:53, Ray Pierce wrote: Yeah, I'm not really one to subscribe to "situational ethics." Right is right if no one is doing it and wrong is wrong if everyone is doing it. Of course there are probably exceptions like in most things...but in general, I don't really agree that something is right in one instance and wrong in another. ________________________________________ Tim, I think I'm on board with you. What you said makes sense. I'll be stopping all sales of known knock-off items in my online eBay store too. Thanks for the discussion (and thanks for being reasonable and not attacking me). I'd rather be honest about my beliefs even if they aren't "popular." The essence of hypocrisy is what some members here have done by attacking me and my church. It's much more important to me to be real than to try to tell people what they want to hear. I don't know about you, but I'd also much rather go to a church where people aren't perfect than to go to one where they appear to be sinless. Doesn't sound like the place for me since I'm only a sinner saved by God's amazing grace! Still learning - Matt
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The Drake Inner circle 2274 Posts
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On 2011-10-14 15:00, Matt Adams wrote: I KNEW you had it in you! I could tell. Thanks on behalf of anyone who ever created anything original. Magic just got a bit better today. On a side note.... just watch how walking on the ethics side works wonders for you. It sure has for me. Regards the attacking.... I have attacked my share of people on this forum. MOST of whom are now close friends because we kept it respectful. Others because we were jerks and manned up and settled it in PM's. Now I try and get my point across in a better manner. You see... I am still learning as well.
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Ray Pierce Inner circle Los Angeles, CA 2604 Posts
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On 2011-10-14 15:00, Matt Adams wrote: I understand your thoughts. The term "situational ethics" might not be the best for this discussion. I was simply trying to explain how something could be agreed upon by one group of people and possibly not accepted by another. I have found out that spitting on the stage floor is not uncommon in some countries but highly frowned upon here. It is normally accepted in most stages in America that having everyone spit on the stage floor is wrong and unacceptable. Is it legally wrong? Probably not but definitely not tolerated or accepted. In other countries it could be very common. Is it also "wrong" there? The problem with ethics is that it is constantly dealing in the shades of gray that are not as easily defined as the black and white demarcation of law. "Thou shall not steal" seems to be very black and white yet we have volumes of laws enacted to attempt and define that very simple concept. Adding to the complexity we have situational ethics which make it even more difficult. A restaurant has a bowl of mints on the counter by the cash register. The implication is that these are for their customers as they leave. Would it be right to walk in and take a handful of mints and leave? Possibly. Would it be right to walk into a buffet and take a handful of food and leave? That would more clearly be wrong yet both are technically the same. If things were that simple and man was really that smart the Bible could have been one chapter concluding with the 10 Commandments. It is because you brought up the ethical dilemma in different situations where one seem right to you yet the other didn't that I use that term but maybe it means something different to everyone. Life and ethics should be simple yet look at how complex this discussion ends up!
Ray Pierce
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Matt Adams Special user Harvest, AL 827 Posts
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On 2011-10-14 15:11, The Drake wrote: Haha, I noticed that on a couple occasions. But I didn't hold it against you because people change all the time. What's funny is that we often assume they don't.
_______________________________________________________ Totally with you now, Ray. Thanks for clarifying.
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MuleePete Loyal user 272 Posts
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*Tim wrote "On a side note.... just watch how walking on the ethics side works wonders for you. It sure has for me."
My experience with sticking to my ethics led me to walk away from a plum job of performing everyday from 4pm until 9:30pm, 7 nights a week, April thru Sept. doing what I really loved. But because of my inablility to "go along to get along" I decided to walk. I have not worked since August 2010. In my area of the country ethics are talked up quite a bit, but seldom followed thru with. Not asking for a tissue, just a note that ethics do not always work in your favor. However, they should still guide your decisions in your dealings. I retain my honor. Pete |
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Ray Pierce Inner circle Los Angeles, CA 2604 Posts
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Pete,
The way I look at it, ethical behavior always works in the long term but not necessarily in the short term. Any time you set your sights on trying to take the high road, you can rest assured it might take a little more effort and longer but you have the satisfaction of retaining the honor you deserve. I also see many people using the argument of "ethics" to justify some of their decisions just because they're stubborn. Sometimes it takes looking at situation carefully from the outside to really find the correct solution. I know I've made choices in the past that I claimed I was doing to be ethical but in fact were just being stupid and inflexible. I was younger and had my mind set with artificially restrictive standards. Once I took my ego out of the picture, I realized these were not ethical issues at all. I don't know your particular situation but I can only hope it will lead you towards a better one in the future. All the best!
Ray Pierce
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Matt Adams Special user Harvest, AL 827 Posts
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On 2011-10-14 18:28, MuleePete wrote: Good thoughts Pete. Doing the right thing isn't typically an issue for me - regardless of the cost. In this one particular case, I was merely trying to determine why or why not dealing with knock-offs was wrong. Once I determined that it was wrong, it isn't difficult at all to do the right thing in spite of the fact it will cost me a good deal of business and therefore money. But my integrity can't be bought. Not an issue. I applaud you for doing the right thing in your case as well. Anyone can "sellout" but there aren't very many people that will stand for what's right nowdays. We need more people who will do the difficult thing and stand up for what's right.
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