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The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » The side walk shuffle » » What is a sidewalk show? (0 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

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Devious
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I guess he would need something larger than a fanny pack to carry all of that money those large shows make. I can point you in the direction of at least half a dozen fanny pack wearing magicians that I know of.

Mr. Friday, go back and remember what Johhnny Ace Palmer told you about our work in the field. I do not feel that you really have a firm grasp on the concepts he may have shared with you, as you seem to have limited yourself or perhaps think that we are having Brinks' Armoured Trucks pulling up at the end of the day. No one is getting rich out there, not even The Hulkster himself.
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Tim Friday
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Quote:
On 2011-11-05 02:20, Eric Evans wrote:
Simply put, the Art does trump the money.

Why are you out there? To make money? I've got news for you, you can make far more money doing other things than working the street. This is one of the great misconceptions about Street Magic perpetuated by people like David Groves, that you can make a small fortune performing on the street.

One of the most misunderstood quotes to be bandied about by the likes of Kozmo and his following came from Cellini when he said: "There is no Art without Money". That phrase has been misused I guess because they misunderstood what Cellini was saying or why he was saying it.

Most magicians sit in their rooms as frustrated performers always wanting to perform, but unable to find a venue. Well practicing in your room is fine, but it isn't art unless it is shared with others. And that is why Cellini went to the street, to find a dependable venue that allowed him the freedom to travel that he so desired.

Let me turn it around and say this, THERE IS NO MONEY WITHOUT THE ART.

Otherwise you're just another hack, hawking your wares to an undiscerning public.

Quote:
On 2011-11-04 19:44, Tim Friday wrote:

...I would go so far to say that if the sidewalk performers were honest, they would admit that deep down they want to be a big circle show worker...



That's a pretty big mouthful for one so inexperienced. At least I assume that you're pretty new to this, if not then my apologies; you're just ignorant.

It's not a question of wanting to be anything other than what we are, capable performers who can work a circle pitch (with or without an amp) if it's available, or a sidewalk, as there are a lot more of those out there to be worked (as Shel has already pointed out).

I've known more circle show guys (and I know a lot of them) who wished they could do a sidewalk than the other way around. And those sidewalk guys were trained to do circle shows precisely because they worked the sidewalks first.

It's easier to work larger crowds after you've learned to establish rapport with a smaller audience than the other way around.

I hope this doesn't come off as abrasive, but I'm really getting tired of people like Bobby and Kozmo indirectly insulting me and my friends as if they know us, in order to raise themselves up. You're just the latest crop. And I would like it to stop. If you all want to extoll the virtues of the circle show, that's fine. Just don't spend your valuable time trying to put someone else down in order to make you look bigger. It's a lie and one that will hurt you in the end.


Eric,
Thank you for joining in the discussion, and thank you for your candor. I've heard great things about you, especially about your work with coins, from many different people. I have a friend who has put in many hours trying to learn some of your coin moves but he still has not mastered them. I hope to meet you one day, see you perform, and learn from you, as you are one of the leading masters of street performers.

We may not see eye to eye on every topic, but I have disagreed with other teachers and it has not been a problem.
For example, I remember asking Gazzo if I should enter contests. I won't tell you his exact words, but Gazzo advised I not enter contests. At the time I was already scheduled for a competition, I told Gazzo I respect his advice, but since I had already entered I would at least follow through and compete. He did not get mad at me and it was not a problem.

All I would say is that I don't feel there is anything wrong with making money at street performing. And I do believe it is possible to make money at street performing. Sure it's not the field of choice if you want to be a Donald Trump or Steve Jobs, but it is possible to make money at it.

I want to learn from everyone. I hope to learn to be a better performer from you Eric and learn of your ideas and beliefs on street performing. After all you've done it a lot longer than I have. I also want to see you pass the coin through the leg. We may not agree on every point but I know I would learn a lot from you.
JoeJoe
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Blah blah blah ... the worst criteria you could use to judge a street performer is the size of his crowd and how much is in the hat. I get so sick of hearing this crap!

If you come watch me on July 4th, by that criteria you would think I was one of the best buskers in the world. But if you return on July 20th when schools start, you would think I was one of the worst buskers in the world. Much like your funeral, the size of your crowd will be determined by the weather more than anything you actually do!

I do trickle shows ... I do doorway shows ... I do semi-circle shows ... I do what the situation allows me to do. If you limit yourself to only circle shows or only doorway shows, than that is exactly what you have done - LIMIT YOURSELF! Don't put limitations on yourself like that.

Do the biggest show you can do in the environment you are in for the people that are available to watch.

-JoeJoe
Amazing JoeJoe on YouTube[url=https://www.youtube.com/user/AmazingJoeJoe]
Tim Friday
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Quote:
On 2011-11-05 14:24, Rotten wrote:
Tim,

You know my show. You know me. Hell we killed a bottle of Jack together one night. Wait, maybe that was Kozmo? Anyway you can easily tell everyone if what I say is a fact or not because you know it is true and you were there. I always listen to the people I know from personal contact, know their show and I trust, appreciate and most of all RESPECT. Kind of like picking friends. I choose wisely.

Remember the first day of Busker Boot Camp when Gazzo tore me a new one for not managing my audience? Perhaps you didn't see it but it has been a long time since anyone has talked to me like that and I needed. My management was pathetic. His words and mine. A small show teaches you how to manage people and yourself. I never had a good small show till now. Remember last month when I started creating my small show? I still have much to learn and I can learn it with a small show. Make it stronger and my big show gets stronger. Why be a one trick poney?

You ride a motorcycle. It's like a dirt bike compared to a crotch rocket. If you crash on a dirt bike you might get a few scuffs or at most a broken arm and the plastic fender may need to be turned right side out BUT on a crotch rocket the bike is totaled and you have broken every bone in your body. I went down a few times. Dealing with drunks and crazy teens and not knowing how to do it. There is no security. No back up. No referee. Just you. So get really bad a** on the dirt bike and then you can fly on the crotch rocket with more confidence. You still have a chance of crashing but you are better at brushing it off and always walking away.

AND furthermore, remember the last day of Busker Boot Camp when there were small crowds and it was HOT? Gazzo looked at me and said "you're not going to do a big bang out show are you?" and I told him no then did my lame small show at the time. Remember? You can't always do a big show. So you must do both if you want to work anywhere anytime.

I have met people that make a good living performing on the street. I've been to there houses. Seen their toys. For me it was hot dog money and a place to work on my craft. I'm still searching for a new pitch for a big show. Another reason I needed a small show. You can do it in so many more places. Then take that sheer talent, grace and beauty and sell it to huge Corporations. Yeah, yeah, the one percenters. I'm a sell out. Get off your soap box!

I didn't know you were a surrogate! Would you please Sarah Jessica Parker my wife a baby? Daddy doesn't want stretch marks.

*****Disclaimer: I do not know Kozmo. I do not know if he drinks Jack or not. He may be a tea tottler? I don't even know how to spell tea tottler. Then again maybe that is how you spell it and spell check is wrong like it was with percenters and poney? I may not be right about any of this and just maybe neither is anyone else. ******


Ted,
Yes, all very good points and entertaining to read.
I agree one must learn step by step and it makes sense to start with a sidewalk show.
I appreciate you pointing out that many street performers make a good living at it and how you have seen their toys.
I do not understand why some performers have a belief that it is not possible to make good money at street performing. It almost seems they take pride in not making much money.

Yes, good point about the conditions of the pitch... So perhaps the conditions of the pitch dictates which type of show is best... (?)
Tim Friday
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Quote:
On 2011-11-05 16:36, Devious wrote:
Mr. Friday, go back and remember what Johhnny Ace Palmer told you about our work in the field. I do not feel that you really have a firm grasp on the concepts he may have shared with you, as you seem to have limited yourself or perhaps think that we are having Brinks' Armoured Trucks pulling up at the end of the day. No one is getting rich out there, not even The Hulkster himself.


Devious,
Thank you for the reply. I'm not sure what you are referring to that Johnny Ace Palmer shared, could you be more specific?
I would venture to say that Palmer is one of the highest paid magicians. If anyone knows how to make money at magic as a profession it would be Johnny Ace Palmer. I would bet that he regularly gets paid 4 digits or 5 digits per show. Definitely easily 4 digits per show.
Tim Friday
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I would just add that many people have written in on this thread saying "don't expect to make a lot of money at street performing". Or something to that effect.

I will be so audacious to say that when someone makes a statement like that, it is very telling about their show and themselves as a performer.

On the low end, a full time street performer should be making $40,000 per year. And again, that is the very low end.

Like Kozmo says, the audience will tell you if you are any good or not. And like Whit Haydn said, street performing is the most democratic form of entertainment.

People tell you how good you are with their dollars, on the street, they vote for you with their dollars. If I am not making the dollars then I know that something about my show needs to change or something about me as a performer needs to change.
The only other reason for not making the dollars is a lack of work ethic.

It is very simple. Let's not use art as an excuse. Let's give up this idea that street performers are at the bottom of the totem pole. Rather than be a victim and have a belief "I can't make much money because I am a street performer" I personally choose to take responsibility for myself as a performer.
If I'm not making the money, I will suck it up and make the changes that need to be made.
Tim Friday
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Quote:
On 2011-11-05 17:22, JoeJoe wrote:
Blah blah blah ... the worst criteria you could use to judge a street performer is the size of his crowd and how much is in the hat. I get so sick of hearing this crap!

If you come watch me on July 4th, by that criteria you would think I was one of the best buskers in the world. But if you return on July 20th when schools start, you would think I was one of the worst buskers in the world. Much like your funeral, the size of your crowd will be determined by the weather more than anything you actually do!

I do trickle shows ... I do doorway shows ... I do semi-circle shows ... I do what the situation allows me to do. If you limit yourself to only circle shows or only doorway shows, than that is exactly what you have done - LIMIT YOURSELF! Don't put limitations on yourself like that.

Do the biggest show you can do in the environment you are in for the people that are available to watch.

-JoeJoe


Joe,
Thank you for sharing, but I would argue what you are describing is a issue of the pitch, rather than an issue of the performer...
fireperformer911
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A internet forum is a very flawed way to learn anything.

You don't know who is posting a full time pro, beginner, hobbyist or anti-Christ. You can't tell if they are joking or serious and who they are talking about.

It is a waste of talent and information to see all these posts from seasoned pros discuss non-constructive topics. It is also harmful in my opinion for beginners to be listening to other beginners advice. I am myself a beginner and have been guilty of this. So in an effort to keep from perpetuating this mistake I am not going on Green Giant for a while.

I would like to end this by saying thanks to all the seasoned pros who have helped me. THEY ARE ALL GOOD GUYS AND IN MY EXPERIENCE ARE DOING WHAT THEY DO FOR THE LOVE OF THE ART. Michael, Todd Various, Gazzo, Mario Morris, Jimmy Talksalot, Bobby Maverick, Riff Raff, Eric Evans, (this order is in the order that I meet them) I would also like to thank the many others who have answered my posts and been helpful. So to list above if I have a question expect a call.

Thanks again Shel
Devious
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My friend Criss Angel loves the Art and Marines.
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FunTimeAl
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Is that you as a lance cooley with a fire watch badge?!?!
Eric Evans
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Quote:
On 2011-11-05 16:57, Tim Friday wrote:

All I would say is that I don't feel there is anything wrong with making money at street performing. And I do believe it is possible to make money at street performing...


I'm impressed Tim; not many people can take what I dished out and roll with it the way you have. Keep it up and you'll make a fine performer wherever you find yourself.

As to the rest of it, I just want the negative back-talking to stop. It doesn't do anyone any good at all.

A big thank you to all who voiced support for my viewpoint, your participation has been greatly appreciated.
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Whoops! messed that up.

Tim, no one said that you couldn't make money at this, where'd you get that idea?
starksanity
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Haha Eric, he thinks your a coin guy Smile

Hey Tim, very thought provoking.

My first thought, or question really, is whether you consider close-up, cocktail, and walk-around as "poor-mans indoor magic?" I ask because many people make their entire living at it, and live comfortably to their own standard because of it. Can you see how that would be insulting to someone. Someone who is daily supporting a family and proving your armchair philosophy wrong?

Also, thought it funny that you would come to the close-up section of a forum, go to a forum called "sidewalk shuffle" and then postulate that a close up show on a sidewalk would never work.

My thoughts are already showing, so I won't beat around the bush either: if you have questions, why not ask them instead of posting incendiary blanket statements. You can label yourself, as many do, as a sidewalk performer or a circle show performer, or anything in between or beyond. That's your preference. But practical guys like Bobby obviously understand that, on the street, that label falls away when people aren't watching or paying a certain size show. I've seen enormous shows performed by people who prefer small shows. I've seen guys who usually do huge shows working terraces, or doing statues because they know the venue won't support their preferred show. They weren't angry about it, they assessed the situation and did what the situation required. If it happens too much, they get out of town as soon as possible.

I wanted to finish by telling a story that inspired me about a performer. That performer was Kozmo, and I wouldn't want to offend if it's the same person who doesn't want to be talked about here. Truly inspiring though. Tells a lot about the mindset of a street performer. (I think Kozmo may have mispoke though, he asked Eric to keep him out of this, when Tim brought him up.)
JoeJoe
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Quote:
On 2011-11-05 17:48, Tim Friday wrote:
Thank you for sharing, but I would argue what you are describing is a issue of the pitch, rather than an issue of the performer...


No it's not ... I do all of that on the same pitch.

-JoeJoe
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Devious
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"Don't forget what happened to the little boy who got everything he ever asked for?"
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padre rich
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The answer is at the end of the video. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l-Aa5ho4wCU&feature=related
By the way, can we stop this bickering ? It's kinda sad.
God's grace rocks! It makes a good cups and balls routine look pretty boring in comparison.
Eric Evans
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For the record, I want Kozmo to have a long healthy life and wish him all the success he deserves. We came to an agreement long ago that we would let this matter go. I felt that agreement was broken when I repeatedly heard from others that he and his student Bobby was trashing me and my friends during their lectures and on pitches. Whether that's the case or not I have no way of knowing and probably should have held my tongue instead of posting what I did on the sidewalk performers forum. I thought about going back and deleting it as I have administrator status there but thinking about all the trash I had heard, I let it stand. So, for my part, I apologize to Kozmo for breaking our agreement. Whether he did or not, I have no way of knowing for certain. But this all happened long ago and whereas I wish it didn't happen to begin with, I wish we could all just let it go and move on. It has caused everyone concerned more pain than any one deserves.
Tim Friday
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Quote:
On 2011-11-05 18:26, starksanity wrote:
Haha Eric, he thinks your a coin guy Smile

Hey Tim, very thought provoking.

My first thought, or question really, is whether you consider close-up, cocktail, and walk-around as "poor-mans indoor magic?" I ask because many people make their entire living at it, and live comfortably to their own standard because of it. Can you see how that would be insulting to someone. Someone who is daily supporting a family and proving your armchair philosophy wrong?

Also, thought it funny that you would come to the close-up section of a forum, go to a forum called "sidewalk shuffle" and then postulate that a close up show on a sidewalk would never work.

My thoughts are already showing, so I won't beat around the bush either: if you have questions, why not ask them instead of posting incendiary blanket statements. You can label yourself, as many do, as a sidewalk performer or a circle show performer, or anything in between or beyond. That's your preference. But practical guys like Bobby obviously understand that, on the street, that label falls away when people aren't watching or paying a certain size show. I've seen enormous shows performed by people who prefer small shows. I've seen guys who usually do huge shows working terraces, or doing statues because they know the venue won't support their preferred show. They weren't angry about it, they assessed the situation and did what the situation required. If it happens too much, they get out of town as soon as possible.

I wanted to finish by telling a story that inspired me about a performer. That performer was Kozmo, and I wouldn't want to offend if it's the same person who doesn't want to be talked about here. Truly inspiring though. Tells a lot about the mindset of a street performer. (I think Kozmo may have mispoke though, he asked Eric to keep him out of this, when Tim brought him up.)


starksanity,
You bring up a good point. I have no idea why the 'sidewalk shuffle' is in the close up section of the Café. If anything, street performing would be in the category of parlor or stage magic, but of course close up is also done in street performing.
When I speak with other magicians in my local club, many of them are not familiar with street performing. So maybe that is why it was listed in the close up section...
Tim Friday
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Apparently there is some politics from that past that I was not aware of & I would prefer to remain unaware. But it was brought up in this thread.

I will say I have learned from this thread & I will say it was wrong and presumptive of me to make a blanket statement that the sidewalk show is a poor man's show.

After reading what Ted (Rotten), Shel, Eric, Bobby, Joe, and others brought up I would say the pitch dictates the type of show that is to be performed. Sometimes a pitch will not allow a big circle show. Or maybe a pitch is good at one time of the day for a sidewalk show but then there is another part of the day the same pitch is better suited for a big circle show.

That's what I'm thinking at this point but I'm just trying to learn.

I guess I will keep at sidewalk shows until I am averaging $100/hat in a sidewalk show, then move up to big circle shows.
Tim Friday
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Quote:
On 2011-11-05 18:21, Eric Evans wrote:
Whoops! messed that up.

Tim, no one said that you couldn't make money at this, where'd you get that idea?


Eric,
I was just saying that I thought that some people take on the idea that as a street performer they are a starving artist and take pride in that. But I think we both understand each other better now.
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