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w_s_anderson Inner circle The United States 1226 Posts |
So I was reading my local news paper out here in Oregon today and was shocked to find an article about Hans Klok. It says he was fined 16,750 dollars by a Dutch court "putting a rival's trick up his sleeve and trying to pass it off as his own." It describes the alleged routine and then says that "Magician Rafael Van Herck, Klok's former sidekick, said he developed the bit and took the case to court. Klok's arguement was that the "tricks are no secret in Las Vegas, but the court ruled that Van Herck's combination is unique."
I am sure this will spark quite a discussion. To me it is frustruating.....how are we as magicians supposed to get our point across about ethics when those at the top of the food chain seem to not mind. Article was written by the associated press and featured in the Oregonion on Thursday Nov. 10th. |
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Aaron Smith Magic Inner circle Portland, OR 1447 Posts |
ALL the secrets are in Las Vegas... What a joke. So that means we can do whatever we want right? I'm glad Rafael won.
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soleil Loyal user 294 Posts |
There are no friends in showbiz it seems... One day people are friends and share secrets and money and glory and the other day they are enemies... Sad and patethic world! I hope it happens only in the Barbie and Dracula world! lol
"Art is the Artist. The Artist is God."- Goete
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XerxX New user I hope I'll make more than 78 Posts |
This is discussed with a link to an article here:
http://www.themagiccafe.com/forums/viewt......um=177&6 (Right or Wrong)
2013-01-25: Returning after a loong absence...
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MagicTiger1639 New user Germany 4 Posts |
The Act is a combination of 2 Tricks... both pretty old itself ...
I follow the Press since it came up 3 weeks ago in the Netherlands. (could read a little dutch) and as far as I understand Hans never say the Trick is his own. Hans and Raphael did work together since Las Vegas 2007. That's when I saw the combination at the show, first time. I think the Point is the choreography. BTW: Hans Klok is one of the most copied Magicians. How many versions of the Fire Spike did you know? |
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Blair Marshall Inner circle Montreal, Canada 3660 Posts |
As one worked for the other, and developed material for him, it sounds like there is a little in fighting going on. It is good that the courts recognised that there are rights associated to the presentation factor. But just too bad it had to go that far. Raphael seemed very pumped when discussing the Las Vegas show, and the work he and Hans were doing together.
Perhaps someone knows the full story of why it came to this? B
Visit My Facebook Fan Page At
www.Facebook.com/BlairMarshallMontrealMagician www.BlairMarshall.ca www.ShaZzamShow.com www.MontrealMagicien.com |
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MagicGib New user 92 Posts |
This is crazy !! the guy is being sued for using a trick which is hardly rocket science and let alone does it fool anyone in the audience
yet after hans took him all over the world with this act on countless TV SHOWS in al major tv stations etc. I think there is more to this story than what we can read on the press. cause rafael has made $$$$$$ 1000,s of them with hans. I smell a bigger fish in the fryer |
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Blair Marshall Inner circle Montreal, Canada 3660 Posts |
That's what I was hinting at. Perhaps one of our European members can fill us in. (Maybe even Raphael, if he can say anything about it.)
B
Visit My Facebook Fan Page At
www.Facebook.com/BlairMarshallMontrealMagician www.BlairMarshall.ca www.ShaZzamShow.com www.MontrealMagicien.com |
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tristanmagic Special user 533 Posts |
The 'real' story. (I know the people involved)
About 20 years ago Rafael had an idea for an illusion whereby a head falls visibly of it's body on a tray. During the following years he made several prototypes/ versions and early 2000 he started using it regulary in his shows and he also started to use it on Tv shows since other, independent created, versions where slowly becoming populair. (at first he wanted to keep his act away from tv to protect it against copy cats) Rafael performed it, for example, on Belgian Tv before youtube started which turns out to be a good thing since youtube made this effect famous worldwide, especially Cyrils version, and this turned out to be very usefull during the court case. Every time he discovered someone with a simular idea he contacted them to make sure there where no misunderstandings. People like Cyril and Peter Marvey attest that Rafael's contacted them early on and that his version is different from their versions and they are aware that Rafael created it independently (and vice versa) When Rafael was consulting in Las Vegas for Hans Klok in 2007 Hans asked Rafael if he could use this effect only for his shows in Las Vegas so a contract was made which stated that Klok only could use it there for his show but no Tv shows or shows outside of Las Vegas. After his Vegas shows he regulary contacted Rafael to perform this effect and he performed it together with Hans in combination with the hand through body effect in his shows and on TV worldwide. Rafael also performed it while touring with Hans in Holland and Germany. A few months ago Hans Klok asked Rafael permission to use it for one time only for a Dutch Tv show that was recorded in Las Vegas with the Chippendales. Being friends Rafael said 'Of course you can borrow it for this occasion' (no money was asked!) It was during this time that Hans has an exact replica made without asking or telling Rafael. Rafael found out when he was invited on the opening night of Klok's new show and while Hans didn't perform the routine because he knew that Rafael was present, Rafael did recognize his costume on stage and he was informed after the show by Klok's crew that Hans did perform Rafael's exact routine. Rafael went backstage to see the costume up close and to try it on and he discovered that it was an exact copy, even the size wasn't changed. Rafael briefly talked to Hans about this who told him that he would stop using it and that they would talk about it the next day, as Hans was busy because it was his opening night, but after many weeks of phone calls and emails that where not answered by Hans, Rafael received an email from klok's manager which said they are not planning to stop using Rafael's act so they forced him to take the next step to protect his creation. Rafael only wanted to have the copy back (without asking for any money)but Hans decided to continue to use it in his theater shows and also on TV in Holland and Japan. I think it is normal when someone copies your act, costume, gimmick and performs it in exactly the same way that you do whatever is needed to protect your 'baby'! I am glad that Rafael made the very difficult decision to stand up for his creation against a friend and he made Magic History by showing us that there is a way to protect your original magic. I think every creator should thank him for this as it is an important step for our Art. |
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ya4davecox Regular user Los Angeles 124 Posts |
Thanks for the update, Tristan. And thank you, Raphael, for standing up for yourself, and, by extension, the rest of us.
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Blair Marshall Inner circle Montreal, Canada 3660 Posts |
Thanks also Tristan.
B
Visit My Facebook Fan Page At
www.Facebook.com/BlairMarshallMontrealMagician www.BlairMarshall.ca www.ShaZzamShow.com www.MontrealMagicien.com |
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Laszlo Csizmadi Special user From Hell 868 Posts |
Quote:
On 2011-11-11 20:09, tristanmagic wrote: Tristan I like Rafael knowledge and performance but let me show you a bit history about this illusion. Everyone who is performing the head off illusion is doing without permission except Cyril. Only Cyril asked permission from the originator. It doesn't matter Rafael asked Cyril because Cyril can not give him. Is it not Cyril's illusion. He only made one of this illusion presentation. Quote:
On 2006-04-14 08:26, Enrico de la Vega wrote: And I asked a question from Enrico and here is his answer. Quote:
On 2006-04-16 11:39, Enrico de la Vega wrote: And to last. Rafael should ask permission from Kawakami Ikuko but he did not. Best, Las |
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tristanmagic Special user 533 Posts |
Las,
Rafael can prove that he got the idea for a head drop effect before Kawakami Ikuko did her version on Tv. (he created it independantly without knowing of any other versions ) Rafael does NOT use Kawakami Ikuko version but his OWN version - different gimmick, look, design, costume and prestation. Cyril can attest that Rafaels version is very different from Kawakami Ikuko version and from his own version. Las, I am sure if you contact Rafael that he will share with you the history of his version. Kindest regards, Tristan |
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Laszlo Csizmadi Special user From Hell 868 Posts |
Tristan,
I'm not arguing but here is the proof Rafael asked permission from Cyril and Marvey. Why he did if he had the illusion 20 years ago? Quote:
On 2006-07-07 00:02, Laszlo Csizmadi wrote: As I said I like Rafael he is very nice guy but I think this case should not end up in court. I'm out of this thread. Best, Las |
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tristanmagic Special user 533 Posts |
Las,
Rafael contacted them to inform them about his version, not to ask permission - which was not needed since he independently created it. You are right that he didn't need to contact them but it shows that Rafael is a very honest(gentle)man who cares a great deal about ethics in magic. The fact that this case ended up in court was not Rafael's fault, he did everything to work things out like friends but it was Klok's managers that didn't want him and Hans to work something out between them. Best, Tristan |
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illusionman2 Special user 991 Posts |
Quote:
On 2011-11-12 08:50, tristanmagic wrote: Since I do MY VERSION of Head Drop (different than Rafale's) Rafael has PM me and not once did he say he invented his version before Kawakami Ikuko. Also (from reading this thread) I think the reason Klok lost is because Rafael and Klok had a written contract that was breached by Klok. |
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LaurensMalter Regular user Belgium 131 Posts |
The whole point is that Rafael created the costume allowing both illusions to be combined, alonbg with his specific routine. Hans did ask Rafael to borrow it for the TV Special 'Tristan' mentioned, but Hans had a copy made using Rafael's costume. Some say it's not nice from Rafael to sue his longtime partner and friend, but I say, it works both ways, after having worked together for so long Hans shouldn't have done this.
I saw Hans' show in Ghent (1 day only in Belgium) and he didn't perform it there, knowing there would be plenty of people that know Rafael and would inform him if Hans would have done the effect. I have also seen Hans' previous show in Holland where Rafael appeared many times and he was great.. I can't believe Hans ruins this friendship so he can have a dancer wear a cheap copy to save some $$$.. Unconfirmed however, Rafael was scheduled to be a part of Hans' show touring in Germany currently, maybe Hans copied the costume so he could kick Rafael out, and this triggered Rafael to sue.. Just to clarify, I think Hans Klok is an amazing magician, so is Rafael, but the difference is, I know Rafael in person, and he told me what happened, magicians ethics are in favout of Rafael.. |
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tristanmagic Special user 533 Posts |
Illusionman2,
Why Would Rafael give you the full history of his head drop effect? Did you ask him? I don't see what you want to prove with your statement??? The contract was for the Las Vegas show and only proves that Klok was aware that Rafael wanted to keep this illusion exclusive for his performances in Europe, this is NOT the reason why Klok lost! Looking at your web-site I noticed that 'your' version of the Head drop is indeed very different from Rafael's version but very simular to Cyril's version... The Laser illusion on your web-site looks also very familiar! And the Tube zag should be destroyed as it exposes the method! Just look at the original Mini Kube zag and notice how the design should look be to deceptive! |
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illusionman2 Special user 991 Posts |
Tristanmagic : yes I did ask and he did not say he had it first.
what was the Legal reason klock lost ?? My Head drop is differnt than Cyril's version. Yes Laser illusion does look very familiar! My Tube Zag is very very old I built from a description in a magic mag had never seen one at that time, so yes it is a little different and I am happy with it http://illusionman.8k.com/catalog.html Thanks for your instrest in my web site Best James |
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tristanmagic Special user 533 Posts |
Illusionman2,
But he didn't say that he didn't have it first either... I have read his head drop history and it is clear that he had the idea independently before Kawakami Ikuko did it on tv. The legal reason Klok lost was because he did an exact copy of Rafael's routine. (using exact the same costume and gimmick) concerning your Tube Zag: Please paint the tubes white again so they contrast more when they are in the box and look bigger. There is a reason why the tubes have an edge and are painted in a bright color! The purple color they have now is not visible enough against the colors of the box. Best, Tristan |
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