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gallagher
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In the past, some really fine Magicians, Performers,.. people; have tangled hairs here, over "Art. Money,.. motivations". A lot of lines have been drawn, boogers flung, twigs broken,... egos inflamed. I´ve, personally, tended towards the `Art camp´, as Bobby would call it. Comfortably sitting on a $10. PLUS, in the bank,... and a storage room filled with milk and Cherios.
Still, it hit me, why haven´t any of us come out and defined Art?,.. that slippery, slimmy little muse,.. who fires our dreams?!? ALL discusion would cease. Logic,.. Clarity would fill the air. The sea would part,.. and all would fall into the orgy of belief.

So boys,.. friends, sisters, visionaries. `Rightious Riders of the Revolution´,... where is it? What is it?? Let´s let it out of the bag.,.. chmmm, pouch.

Art,.. the great Undefinible. Infinate. `Godly´. ?
Come on, let´s not be so cowardly. So mortal.,.. or is it laziness we´re dealing with here? Art,... let´s go for it.

Art. First a story, then the words.
This past summer, in Bonn, a lady crashed one of our Shows. Naturally, a `big crowd Show´. She started dancing around us, making figures, and chanting `bla bla´. The whole time, being filmed by her compagnon. Artistically speaking: a real pain in the ass. We had to stop the Show.
Red as a radisch, steaming from the ears; I listened to her explaination of Art. "Creating Beauty, as I see it. Feel it,.. in the moment." aggggsch,.. that´s the sound of knashing teeth, in German.
As it was, SHE was in town, to participate in an `Open Air Gallery´ being held on the weekend in the city park,... displaying her paintings.
believe me, Revenge, IS sweet. The THOUGHT of Revenge, is stimulating.
Saturday morning, we pushed our Show right thru the front gate,.. no questions asked, and looked for our caviar-pudding. She was set up on an intersection of two pathways. Imagine a clock. 9, 12, 3, and 6 o´clock; the paths came in, and exited. She was set up between 9 and 12; another stand, between 12 and 3. We set up at `6 o clock´,.. totally blocking the one path.
"da da, da-da, da, da",... that was our first number, in German. At first, she was screaming, "You´re blocking the way! You´re disrupting the natural way for the people!!"
,but,.. the crowd was with us. We played a half hour Show. Dropped the Hat,.. packed up.

There was an errie feeling in the air,.. an euphoria. An unexplainable `zaaah!´. wow. Then it hit me. (please sit down folks.) Art is the conscious/calculated alteration of nature.

We pushed `the norm´, `the expected´, the `natural´. For one half of an hour, something `unnatural´ took place. Something `Artificial´. But thru this, something new, unexpected took place. The banale norm was expanded.

Art., a concious/calculated alteration of nature.

Ok,.. I´ll let it go at this,.. for now.
Thank you for reading,.. taking the moment.
Thank you for `considering´,...

gallagher `eight jelly doughnuts´ hayes.
Stperformer
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Heya Gallagher,

Rache ist eine Kunst in sich selbst.
Great story Smile
unilogo
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Art is easily defined, as visual or lyrical forms of expression, that struggle with the eternal philosophical questions of: Identity and the universe.

Consequently: Authors, musicians, painters, filmmakers, comedians, etc...

Are superior to magicians, in measurable success. Critical and popular acclaim aside; The representative artists in those mediums, all have idols and masterpieces. For example, which magician has had the cultural impact of a Beethoven or Da Vinci, in practical and emotional depths?

Houdini? Roughly... If you ask this question honestly. Magicians are trickery and have been for hundreds of years. We develope contraptions and methods for fooling laymen better, but what are the rewards for the audience? We are the artistic equivalent of decorative art... Magic looks pretty and impossible, but who cares? The monotone emotion it always engages from the audience is some mystery of impossibility... But, it gets old really fast.

Magic is inheritedly art; No doubt. Not, fine art mind you.. I may believe that concept when a museum curator sets up a show in a prestigious museum; And, is recieved with critical success and the audience have emotional epiphanies.

From my experience, the streets are too rough and lack crowds of serious intellectuals and academics; So, do not bother. Make money, with enterntainment not art...

Enterntainment, is also appreciated and valid to people. Smile
starksanity
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I've heard that many, many fine artists consider themselves craftsmen, and to even consider the argument would hamper their creativity and expression. Do what you do and let the historians haggle over definitions.

Not to say I don't have a favorite definition when looking at other peoples' work.

Art is the expression of an individual (artist) with a unique vision and an appropriate medium to convey it.

I like it because it assumes a mastery of craft. And while we are working toward that we won't have time to argue over art or Art.

Has anyone read or seen played Yasmina REZA's play, "ART?"
Mario Morris
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It is impossible to define,
Is it the Artist or the one who looks upon the artist work or is is it the space between it all.
Therefore I can not define it, one can try to summarize it.
Art has no boundaries!
Tim Friday
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Funny you should mention this, I was just speaking to Don Driver yesterday & he said they can teach a monkey how to do a magic trick, it's how the performer connects with the audience that makes it art. (Don, please make sure I got that right...)

So from your post you are saying the strong emotion of satisfied revenge is what made your performance an art?
DonDriver
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Your close Tim.It was a chimp not a monkey.Other than that your right on.This reminds me of a story I read way back.It involed a law suit about pornoaphy.The judge said I don't know the definition of pornoaphy,but I know it when I see it.Same with art I think.Magic per se isn't art or anything close to art.Its the person doing the magic that can make it art...dare I say "magician".
MagiCol
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Don, I think you've pretty well hit the nail on the head.
To move away from simply the magician, I'll rephrase what you said as:
"It's the person involved in the activity that can make it an art."
Painting a picture, pitching Svengalis, creating magic, dancing, acting, swimming, playing a game as a team...
I've just realized something as well: 'It's in the eye of the beholder to see something as beautiful, an Art, and not just an activity, job, or whatever.'

Some people think that knowing how a magic trick is done spoils watching it. I hope that those who know how it is done then move on to admiring how well it is done and call it ART.
The presentation makes the magic.
TomFoolery
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My mother now she is retired goes to painting classes.
She can work on one painting for the whole class with a finished piece of art at the end.
However when the teacher comes over to help and does two strokes of the brush and takes the painting to a whole new level.

There is a point here not sure what it is too early in the morning and no coffee.
gallagher
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Hey folks, thanks for checking in,.. thinking about,.. taking the time to share the thoughts.

Unilogo, great(!). I really apreciated your "easy definition". Really, though, great. I accures to me, you´ve wrestled with the question.
I disagree with your conclusions, though. The Streets, the `everyday´, ARE an ideal stage,.. let out the success. Art should PUSH the barriers of perceived reality.

Starksanity, I like your relation between Art and Handwork/Craftmen. I believe, the more technique, skilled developed; the greater chance you have to express yourself. However, I do not believe, mere Expression is Art.
I´ve come up with something related, but,... no. "Beauty, is the honest expression of emotion."
Again, Beauty,... not Art. I believe Art is a different sandwich.

Mario, let go of the clichés. Open your mind. Go for it! Energy has no boundaries, but Albert did a pretty good job putting it on paper! (e=mc2)

Tim, you missed the point of my Post,.. maybe I lost it in the words. The `Revenge´ was not the heart. Going for the revenge, I came into a situation where I stumbled apon the thought.
Again, the thought is: Art, a conscious alteration of nature.

Don, Magicol; just because something is welldone,.. maybe entertaining,.. naa, that´s not enough. I believe Art has another dimention. AND I´m not saying it always happens(!) "Every Show is a work of Art." On the contrary. I believe Art accures seldom,... maybe because we do not understands it´s nature!. Again, a reason for trying to understand it!! When, IF we could understand it, we could,... if we wanted to,.. go for it.
,... this, however, is another beast.

Still: Art, a conscious/calculated alteration of nature.


don´t be scared of it,.. let it dance around in your head a bit. It´s a tickler.

Thanks for the thoughts,.. for the plate to dish them out on.

giving it easy,
gallagher.
TheAmbitiousCard
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Art..
Being magicians, aren't a lot of our artistic ideas never noticed?

But there are the things that do get noticed: using new bits you thought of on your own, using old bits in ways that nobody thought of before, skillful manipulation of props, psychological manipulation of the spectators, etc.


I'm not sure I would call all painting art. The person may have studied art...
I can appreciate a lot of painters but the ones that I stare at the most are the ones that, to me, seem to boldly use as little as possible to bring things to life, like Diego Velazquez, Franz Hals, even Picasso with the bull's head, made with 2 things. done!

Magicians should be the last people to walk into a museum, see a simple canvas with a few dots and say.. "I could do that".

We should know what it takes to boldly put things on display that may or may not be accepted by our audience. I have bits in my show that I was scared to implement at first... wondering how they would be received. If it's well received.. is it art? What is it if it's not well received? Smile
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Nick Broad
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Again, I gotta apologise for making this a comment on "art vs money" rather than "magic art vs money". I hope you don't mind.

When we started out tour of buskers, we were intent on getting to the bottom of the Art VS Money debate. Sometimes the line is very clear, where artists like The Birdman in Rome take much smaller hats than they could because they like to give tiny, intimate performances that take people to another world. On the other side, there are people essentially begging with instruments.

There seem to be many more artists out there than money people. At least, that's what the buskers think of themselves. For example, a traffic-lighter who lives in a disheveled shanty town on the outskirts of Lima, Peru, gave us a speech on the history of juggling and art when we asked him how he thinks he is viewed by passersby. Taking it a step further, some buskers even pride themselves on the artistry of their hat speech.

It's gotten to the point that we've had to agree with each other that the line between art and money doesn't really exist. That's helped stop some arguments. We decided that it's human nature to try to better oneself. Regardless of the motivation to get better, "for the love" or "for profit", the result of training in anything is undeniably "art" — the production of content touched by the personality of its maker. To give a bad example, Liam Gallagher, lead singer of Oasis, has always said he got into music for the money and to be famous. Yet his songs are still artistic. To give an even worse example, at the moment we're staying in a hostel in La Paz with a bunch of French backpackers who busk to afford their travel. They don't care in the least about devil sticks or clubs, and yet the performances they give are weird and hippie...definitely a form of art.

There used to be a busker in Washington Square Park, NYC, who used to race tortoises. He'd gather a crowd and get them all to bet on which tortoise would win (not money bets). When the race was won, the emotional state of the crowd would be at its highest, and yet because the busker was so wrapped up in the storyline he would then do a trophy ceremony, which, of course, nobody cared about. If he'd cashed in before the ceremony, he'd make much bigger hats. Instead, he took a hit for the "art" of his show. He ended up taking a gig in a toy store.


"The applause of the audience is the bread...but I could definitely use the butter" (NYC busker).
"When artists dine together, they talk about money. When bankers dine together, they talk about art."
Nick Broad
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Mario Morris
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Hmm, Smile
Yes it is a cliché yet every thing can be summarized in "art has no boundaries"

So instead of trying define art I find my self trying to define a cliché, I will try, hear it goes.

Art, the very nature of it kicking against limitations, restrictions that are hung around it.
As it evolves then it has to cast of any restriction of this is right and wrong. Not that art is a moral issue as such, it is far bigger than that it is far bigger than any one defined reasoning.

For within our reasoning is restrictions, this is not to say don't discus, rather discus as you have rightly said "with an open mind" I add, discuss with out the aim defining. Smile

To draw parables of it alone side science is to shallow for it has an eternal expression as well,
One could talk about eternity that which goes on for ever and ever but to claim grasp on understanding the term "for ever" is to define as religions have done.
How can one define "for ever" if one has not experienced it, yet you can wonder about for ever, for sure and that is when the fun begins.
To summarize art in a painting is like trying to define a religion in a glass stained window, many have tried.

So I will never claim to being able to define art, as I would never claim to being able to define eternity, that is far greater than I,
Yet I can wander in its gardens and enjoy playing with its challenges even if they frighten me and I hope to brave enough to push through.

I once use to say why change what works, now I say how wrong I was,
change for the sake of change, for surly it better than staying the same for the sake of staying the same.

Art has no boundaries = perhaps art is eternal
Nick Broad
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Beautiful
Nick Broad
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Bobby Maverick
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My grandmother used to pick the petals off of roses and create these water color and rose petal paintings with the most beautiful depth and richness.
My sister would cry and try to put the petals back on the flowers.
Tim Friday
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There is a prevailing stereotype that artists are poor or starving, however this type of thinking has no place for a street performer.

As street performers, we have a luxury that few other types of performers have. I think Lance Burton said it best (paraphrase): "Run it up the flagpole, and if people salute it, you know you should keep doing it" but if people don't salute it, you know you should change it.

David Williamson said something similar on Reel Magic when he was talking about magic conventions. He said he only tries new stuff at magic conventions because he can't do that at his corporate gigs, at those gigs he has to do what he knows works. So he experiments at conventions. It was a free clip on the Reel Magic website, I'm guessing it is still there...

So in a sense, we have an advantage over guys like Williamson because we can try new stuff everyday. We can keep running stuff up the flagpole until we know they will salute it.

In that regard, there is no excuse for someone to say, "oh boohoo I don't make much money but it's ok because I am an artist!" Please.

If someone says this they are too proud to be willing to change something about themselves. All it takes is a willingness to make the changes to make a good show that makes the money. Put your ego aside and make the changes.
Tim Friday
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I would just add that we are now in an era where art and business are one in the same.

Steve Jobs is the perfect example of business combined with art. He was a genius at design and aesthetics (art) but also brilliant at business.

When so much was in the news when he died I remembered reading somewhere that he made business cool again. For decades business people, CEO's, etc where viewed as being square. But Jobs turned that idea on it's head and now all the kids want to be CEO's.

He eliminated the chasm between business and art.

So would all the whining artists who complain about being poor please get off your butts and take responsibility for whatever issues and baggage you have about money and business?!?!

I know we all have different beliefs and baggage about money, but all it takes is being willing to take responsibility for these beliefs to retrain them...
HerbLarry
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Quote:

I would just add that we are now in an era where art and business are one in the same.




No.
Incorrect.
False.
Untrue.
You know why don't act naive.
DonDriver
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Quote:
On 2011-11-14 16:53, HerbLarry wrote:
Quote:

I would just add that we are now in an era where art and business are one in the same.




No.
Incorrect.
False.
Untrue.


Check theses prices and tell me business and art aren't one of the same. http://www.art-mine.com/for-sale/paintings or in this case "art and scamming" are one of the same.
Eric Evans
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Hiya Don,

I'm not so sure I'd classify those paintings as Art. More like an upscale "starving artist sale".

I always thought Art was supposed to express something universally transcendent. Of course I guess that eliminates most of "Modern Art" which seems to be nothing more than glorified wall paper (still talking painting here).

As to Tim's comment, seems I was wrong about Tim in my revised estimation; making the kind of general, all-inclusive statements he has, would indicate a someone who is really full of his own ideas about who everyone else is.

A potentially great performer would know better, or at least allow room to perceive the merest glimmer that he/she might be wrong.
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