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The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » Ever so sleightly » » New to Cups and Balls..Where truly to start? (4 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

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Pete Biro
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1933 - 2018
18559 Posts

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If you work for laymen it is hard to beat the Vernon routine. For magicians? No.
STAY TOONED... @ www.pete-biro.com
TheAmbitiousCard
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I agree with Whit 100%.

The biggest mistakes beginners make is:
1. trying to come up with something unique.
2. trying to cram every possible move/slight/effect into their "own" routine

Start with a routine that you find really love and just do that and only that.

As soon as you can, get some cups that you really enjoy using. One of the things that kept me from practicing the trick way back when was.... crappy cups. As soon as I bought my first set of nice cups, I practiced a lot more often and enjoy the practice a lot more.

Years later you'll realize what you perform has changed from the original.
You'll then be performing your own routine. One that evolved based on your years of experience.
www.theambitiouscard.com Hand Crafted Magic
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Andrew Zuber
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I second what Frank says - when I graduated from cheap plastic cups to a nice copper set, I really looked forward to practicing more. They handled better and felt and sounded great. It really did make a lot of difference.
"I'm sorry - if you were right, I would agree with you." -Robin Williams, Awakenings
yin_howe
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Malaysia
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Ditto to what Frank and Andrew said
"Talent without passion is talent wasted.."
Pete Biro
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1933 - 2018
18559 Posts

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I know it's only been three days since you asked, but have you decided anything yet?
STAY TOONED... @ www.pete-biro.com
Bill Palmer
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Frank knows what he is talking about.

Let me add this:

One of the biggest secrets of art is to know when to stop, that is, what to leave out. There is a fellow that some of you know who knows literally every move that can be done with a set of cups and balls, AND he is bound and determined to perform each one of them every time he does the trick.

It's BORING as HELL!

Learn how to do your loads. Go to the Secret Sessions section and look for Final Load Logic.
"The Swatter"

Founder of CODBAMMC

My Chickasaw name is "Throws Money at Cups."

www.cupsandballsmuseum.com
Ekuth
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Floating above my
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With C&B I follow the KISS rule: Keep It Simple, Silly (I'm being PC)

I've found, as Bill and Frank alluded to, this routine works best when it's not overcrowded.

Think of it as a new car- you can buy all of those options, sure... but are you really going to use all of them? This is the one effect that can truly be customized to every magician's taste and style.

I'll throw in one suggestion not mentioned (although you can put another vote for the Anmar DVD's down for me):

There's a great beginner's routine in the "Knack - Make It Easy" series book titled "Magic Tricks". It's a great book on its own merit, with a wide variety of effects, but the C&B routine on pp. 196-203 is a nice step by step place to start.
"All you need is in Fitzkee."
Octopus Sun
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Wiggle Wiggle
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I apologize. I was wrong about my statements on the Ammar DVD.
I've been watching it since I wrote that, and see I was so wrong.
My bad. Again I'm sorry all.
I am studying this work with a new and open eye, heart mind.
I'm just frustrated at my own put/transfer.
Bill Palmer
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No biggie.

Read the material from Hocus Pocus, Junior. You can download it at the museum. It's FREE!!!!!!
"The Swatter"

Founder of CODBAMMC

My Chickasaw name is "Throws Money at Cups."

www.cupsandballsmuseum.com
RevJohn
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Oregon City Oregon, Oregon
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Quote:
On 2011-11-16 13:57, Bill Palmer wrote:
Learn how to do your loads. Go to the Secret Sessions section and look for Final Load Logic.


Bill,

I seem to be missing the Final Load Logic topic, and wondering if someone might pm me a link. Would love to read more on this.

Pete gave me some great advice on the final loads when I posted my rendition of the C&B, based heavily on Vernon's routine. So I am continually looking for more information, advice, tips on those pesky final loads!

RevJohn
GaryLee
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I purchased The Complete Course In Magic With Cups & Balls by Eddy Ray. I also own Ammars DVD's on Cups & Balls. Because I started with Eddy Ray's Cups & Balls I didn't find anything new that I could use in the Ammar DVD's. I'm sure perhaps my opinion would be different if I had purchased Ammar's DVD's first, but despite me finding Eddy to be boring to watch and learn from, the pain of it paid off well for me. I was able to learn the basic moves, including hold outs and loads. Even cup and wand manipulations. My whole routine is based on learning from Eddy Ray's DVD. I would probally be saying the same thing about Ammar's DVD's if I had purchased them first.

I have always wondered why on the cover of Eddy Ray's DVD it says, "2 DVD set on a single sided dual layer disc". Doesn't that just make it a 1 DVD set then? LOL

Gary
magicofrovin
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Quote:
On 2011-11-12 14:23, Bill Palmer wrote:
I would disagree with Duaut's assessment of the Ammar DVD's. The explanations of the sleights are extremely clear. The main thing is not to try to learn more than one sleight at a time. Watch the sleight, then the explanation. Then stop the DVD and learn the sleight. The pair of DVD's is well-organized and clearly explained. It builds upon itself. It's like a course in how to do the cups and balls. The only reason that there is so much detail about the wand spin is that it is not easy to explain.

The Ganson book is actually over-explained, to the point that it becomes confusing. Vernon, himself, wasn't all that pleased with it. If you don't have the Dai Vernon Book of Magic and you want that particular explanation of the cups and balls, get the booklet Dai Vernon Cups & Balls Routine which is extracted from the Vernon book. Ganson was a top-notch photographer, but sometimes his explanations were much more complicated than they needed to be.

Also, if you can find Michael Ammar's book The Complete Cups and Balls, that's almost mandatory. It's been out of print for a couple of years, but still shows up on eBay from time to time.

Fun, Inc. puts out a booklet called Cups Balls - A Treatise on the World's Oldest Deception, which was edited by Gabe Fajuri. There is a video from Hampton Ridge that basically goes along with it that won't hurt you to have.

Rafael Benatar has a DVD called Elegant Cups and Balls that I found to be very helpful.

And, of course, the Gazzo material which you already have is also excellent.

You might find some material on the Bob White DVD helpful.

Amen to this.
francisngkl
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Quote:
On 2011-11-17 13:39, RevJohn wrote:
Quote:
On 2011-11-16 13:57, Bill Palmer wrote:
Learn how to do your loads. Go to the Secret Sessions section and look for Final Load Logic.


Bill,

I seem to be missing the Final Load Logic topic, and wondering if someone might pm me a link. Would love to read more on this.




Pete gave me some great advice on the final loads when I posted my rendition of the C&B, based heavily on Vernon's routine. So I am continually looking for more information, advice, tips on those pesky final loads!

RevJohn


Here is the link

http://www.themagiccafe.com/forums/viewt......forum=37

Francis
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RevJohn
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Thanks! Appreciate it.

John
Bill Palmer
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The Eddy Ray DVD is somewhat controversial. When Eddy put it out, he had no control over what went onto the DVD. THere are a number of flubs and bloops that should have been edited out. I panned the DVD because of the similarity of the name to the Ammar DVD set and because of the technical failings of the DVD.

Later, I learned from someone who knows Eddy that he had no intention of copying Ammar's course, and that he had been under the impression that he would have some artistic control.

The person who produced the DVD could have made this a much better set by simply editing out the flubs and bloops. But he didn't.

I found Eddy's performance of the cups and balls somewhat offensive because of the way he handled the spectators.

And, of course, there was NONE of the historical material on the Eddy Ray set. If you don't think the historical aspect of the cups and balls is important, then you will be in the same spot that a couple of people I know were in when they told me they had invented the first three cup routine that used only three balls.

The first one in print was by Ken Brooke.
"The Swatter"

Founder of CODBAMMC

My Chickasaw name is "Throws Money at Cups."

www.cupsandballsmuseum.com
Kevin Gardner
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Richboro, PA
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Eddy Ray is left handed, which can get confusing, espcially when learning the vanishes.
There are some moves in the Eddy Ray DVD that are not found in the Ammar DVD's, it makes a nice supliment to the Ammar DVD's.
Dynamike
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I am another supporter of Michael Ammar's DVDs. He is very educational. He talks about the history. He explains so many moves and routines in a understanding manner. And Michael is a great instructor just like Bill Palmer.
Larry Barnowsky
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I would suggest the Stevens Cups and Balls video. At this moment they are selling it at $7.50. It has four different performers explaining their routines including Ammar. http://www.stevensmagic.com/index.php?ma......_id=7569
It's VHS. The DVD is $32.50

My own routine is taught in step-by-step detail in my book,The Book of Destiny. It's also performed and explained on the companion DVD.
:cups:


Larry Smile
MysticJohn
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Frank Garcias Very Best of Cups and balls, if you can find it , has some great stuff to review, and Paul Gertners routine is worth having a look at if you have not seen it., in his book and one of the DVDs I believe.
timmyjimmy
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I would post a reply here but Pop Hadyn and Bill Palmer already did, and that is enough for me!
Seriously though. The Ammar Dvd's are the BEST!
Gazzo dvd and booklet, TOP NOTCH!
What I loved about the Ammar dvd's is that they broke down the Beginning, middle and ending sequence pieces so that the whole routine begins to make sense as a routine.
Along my journey in Cups and Balls, I found my way.
Cellini, Tom Frank, and others have influenced my journey!
This post is 6 years after your initial question.
SO!? Where are you at with the process today!
What path did you follow!
What were your biggest influences cups and balls.. wise?
I recently watched the Eddy ray dvd and compared to Michael Ammars... it false seriously flat and dry.
Honestly, all one needs is the Ammar cups and balls dvd's and the Gazzo and you will be off and RUNNING!
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