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Eric Evans
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Seems this thread morphed into something really interesting. Thanks guys.

Pro-Labor is the same thing as what Marx was referring to when he said Proletarians right? He was talking about Workers I believe, I'll check my sources Smile

So, I don't understand what the distinction is in this case, and why some seem to insist upon making such.
Mario Morris
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May I add
As I see it Occupy is a collective of different people on a globale scale and should be discussed as so, it is not a Socialist movement, this is tarring with the same brush, Danger rings.
For example Just because you see a few Socialist flags in anti war campaign does not mean every one in the protest are now Socialist.
Rather a group of free inderpendent thinking pepole are ralling together united with one comon agreement.
That is what I have seen with Occupy.

Long term, I think Occupy is good for the streets, Pepeole realising they can express them selfs is a good thing in my mind.
What I don't understand is buskers who say one should not do this on the street, to me that what the streets is all about.

Hear is what one kid had to say about it on the Streets of London.

(THIS CLIP INCLUDES SWEARING)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9sXUlSWKA......&list=UL
FunTimeAl
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+1

Double like

Chad
JoeJoe
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Quote:
On 2011-12-09 08:49, Mario Morris wrote:
As I see it Occupy is a collective of different people on a globale scale and should be discussed as so, it is not a Socialist movement, this is tarring with the same brush, Danger rings.
For example Just because you see a few Socialist flags in anti war campaign does not mean every one in the protest are now Socialist.


Your posts always give me warm fuzzy feelings Mario ... but it doesn't change the fact that they are promoting a pro-socialist agenda.

What more do you need to see? We already saw the endorsement from the Socialist Party ... how about one from the Communist Party of America? Or perhaps everyone's favorite American Nazi Party? Do you think these groups spend time and resources endorsing non-socialist movements? It's not just a few flags and banners ... there is no shortage of solid evidence that this is a socialist agenda.

I'm not talking about the people showing up to express their frustrations about banking practices and corporate greed - by all means, public parks and sidewalks are the appropriate venue for such expression and I have no problems with them being used for such purpose. But before I jump on any bandwagon, I want to know who's driving it and where they are going. And this bandwagon was built by socialists and it is being driven by socialists ... I'm talking about the core of the group that is pulling the strings and running the show.



All you have to do is look at how their camps are run ... they are socialist communes ... and the results are exactly the same as every other socialist society. The incentive is to be "unproductive" because you don't need to expend any energy to acquire goods, so eventually the productive people can no longer sustain the unproductive people. The "productive" members must then eradicate the unproductive ones. In this case, it is the hungry homeless: zuccotti_hell_kitchen

Excuse me ... they are protesting to help the poor? No they are not! Those protesters are among the richest 1% of the world's population, and their distortions of the economic data are bald faced lies! It's not even about the money ... read that article ... the chefs were working long hard hours, they were "productive" and had to eradicate the "unproductive" members of the group. I don't dare mention the names of historic parallels, as I'm sure they should be obvious.



And I certainly take issue with their idea of "occupying" public space indiffidently preventing the rest of the public (ie: buskers) from using it. It is one thing to hold a rally or a march to make your opinion known ... it is another thing to force it down our throats. I would have the same issue with buskers that harass the general public as well.

"Occupation" goes against "freedom". I don't see myself busking in front of them ... I see them protesting in front on me!



-JoeJoe
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epoptika
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I just cannot help myself.

My God, Joe Joe, You are just a colossal idiot! You have absolutely no idea what you are talking about!

You, like so many others in this country have been brainwashed, from infancy, by corporate America to perceive communism and socialism and all forms of government that even hint at any association with them as the pinnacle all of evil. Right up there with eating babies and burning old ladies.

How do you imagine that schools, libraries, hospitals, public health departments, police and fire stations, streets and parks, etc., get built? Who pays for interstate-highways, bridges and national parks? Who pays the salary of the people who work in those places? Where did the money come from to build the Lincoln Memorial or the Vietnam Wall? For that matter where does the money come from to build all of the football stadiums and other sports facilities in this country? Did it come from Carnegie or Mellon or Donald Trump? No? Then where? Why, from us, the taxpayers. Because we believe it is a good idea to pool our money to build things that benefit all of us. It is called working for the "common good". Kind of like a "commune" kind of thing. We all want to live in lovely, safe, quiet neighborhoods where our children have nice parks to live in, our streets are free of potholes, our garbage gets picked up from the curb and we don't need to worry about thugs kicking in our doors or our houses burning to the ground. Of course those things do not come without money and cooperation. You have to choose some sort of government, people who represent your common interests and work together to build that kind of neighborhood, or state, or country. Of course you run into problems if the people you elect to run your town start taking money from their special interest friends and start making decisions based on what is good for their friends and their own pockets and not what is good for the townsfolk. You don't want to find out the guys collecting your garbage are dumping it into a landfill nearby, where it is polluting the groundwater that supplies your town. That's where oversight and regulation comes in. But that takes more taxpayer money doesn't it? More of that ***, intrusive government the corporations teach us all to hate so much. Ah, well, better do as the Republicans suggest and just leave all the self-policing to the corporations, because after all, they really do know best don't they. And we can trust them to do the right thing. Can't let any of that socialist mentality, "looking out for the common good", slip into our system of government. We don't want our country to turn into Denmark, or any of those other scandinavian sh*th*les, with their wicked Democratic-Socialist forms of government. I don't care that they are consistently rated as the "happiest people in the world" and have the highest standards of living in the world. Those people pay a LOT in taxes. And they make their governments and the companies doing business over there totally accountable to the people. Can you imagine!? They sound like SOCIALISTS!!!

Bernie Sanders, U.S. senator from Vermont, is a self-described Democratic-Socialist. The first person elected to the U.S. Senate to identify as a socialist (according to Wiki). Read his bio on Wiki. Visit his website and learn what he represents. Then read his book - "The Speech; A Historic Filibuster on Corporate Greed and The Decline of Our Middle Class". Until you have done that, and learned what Democratic-Socialism truly is you should shut your yap about the Occupy movement because you do not have a clue what you are talking about.
The Great Zoobini
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Smile
Meet you in Busker Alley Smile
MagicDr
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Quote:
On 2011-12-02 16:45, JoeJoe wrote:
Quote:
How is it an issue how the rest of the world lives if our sovereignty does not extend across out borders? The last time I checked, taxpayer money addresses US interests. Your attempt to make the protesters appear hypocritical is flawed logic at best - not only is the idea of disparity across the globe a non issue to the US issues being protested, but you're committing a "Tu Quoque" fallacy. Do I suspect a Red Herring?

I am not defending these people. They should have focused on Wall Street involvement in government by protesting Citizens United and Washington lobbying (instead of requesting more handouts) to be taken seriously. Nevertheless, I have to point out your invalid argument. If you're going to attack a certain viewpoint, at least do it fairly and within context


It is not "my" logic, it is the logic of World Bank economist Branko Milanovic.

And they are not protesting US tax money, they are protesting corporate policies they claim favor the top 1% of the population. In fact, the protest was not even started by Americans - it was started by Canadian "Adbuster" activists. Not to mention there are Occupy protests in Japan, Spain, Italy, South Korea, Taiwan, Germany, France, blah blah blah ...

Google Map of Occupy Protests

So yeah ... pointing out that these people are a part of the 1% they are protesting is indeed fair and in proper context!

-JoeJoe


Genetic fallacy. Please try again...with your own logic. They are protesting those policies because it affects their ability to gain employment in the US, not elsewhere. Their intentions are not global
MagicDr
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Quote:
On 2011-12-02 12:53, Paddy wrote:
Quote:
On 2011-12-02 12:04, MagicDr wrote:

How is it an issue how the rest of the world lives if our sovereignty does not extend across out borders? The last time I checked, taxpayer money addresses US interests.
Sorry Doc but that is WRONG! American taxpayer money addresses most other countries interests and ignores our own. It's called "Foreign Aid" and if you look at the money, time, lives and ammunition we spend in Pakistan and Afghanistan supplying the Taliban and other terrorists you'll see.

This is NOT A POLITICAL comment, just looking at facts not making judgements


How about the fact that US aid comes with stipulations that eventually address our interests abroad? In Pakistan, we gain access to roads for supply transport into Afghanistan among other things. Generally, foreign aid anywhere gets us something in return. It's either a loan or we expect certain favors so don't claim you are stating FACTS when your claim is an OPINION
JoeJoe
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Quote:
On 2011-12-10 11:27, epoptika wrote:
My God, Joe Joe, You are just a colossal idiot! You have absolutely no idea what you are talking about!


It is difficult to have an adult conversation with someone that insists on acting like a child with name calling like that. Disappointing. : /



Quote:
How do you imagine that schools, libraries, hospitals, public health departments, police and fire stations, streets and parks, etc., get built? Who pays for interstate-highways, bridges and national parks? Who pays the salary of the people who work in those places? Where did the money come from to build the Lincoln Memorial or the Vietnam Wall? For that matter where does the money come from to build all of the football stadiums and other sports facilities in this country?


Where did I say people shouldn't pay taxes? Don't you dare start putting words in my mouth! You have no idea what my political positions are, I haven't posted any! All I've done is expose this "movement" for what it really is ... a pro-socialist agenda.

We build roads so we can transport goods and resources that can be used to produce more goods and resources. That is not wealth redistribution. Paying taxes is not anti-capitalism, quiet the opposite ... the more goods and services the people can produce, the more taxes they will raise. It is people that camp out in parks for weeks instead of looking for work that put a drag on the tax base. Taxes are already collected and regulations are already in place, executives at Enron were arrested, Madoff is in jail, the system may need tweaking but it is far from broken!

I see nothing in this country that requires an occupying force to take over our political and social systems without the consent of the voting public. That is EXACTLY what their goal is! This was inspired by Cairo's Tahrir Square.

They are now occupying foreclosed homes ... what gives them that right? The banks don't just manufacture money ... it is like a little kid crying for a new toy and mommy says she doesn't have the money ... so the kid says "just go to the ATM and get more" ... IT DOESN'T WORK THAT WAY! Banks loan out the money that people deposit in their savings accounts. So if I borrow the money to buy a house and refuse to pay it back, how are you going to feel when you go to the bank to withdraw your life savings to be told they don't have the money because I didn't pay back my loan?

That is wealth redistribution ... that is what they want. Money that people have saved in the bank should be given to the people that can't afford their houses. Free health care for everyone ... free college for everyone ... free houses for everyone ... and free food for everyone (everyone except the homeless that is). It would be nice for our lifetime ... maybe our children's ... but at some point, the money will be spent and the productive people will begin to eradicate the unproductive people. That is the end-game scenario.

You are not going to take money out of my hat and put into yours! No no no ... how would you feel if I took money out of your hat and put into mine because you were a better busker? That is socialism. How about a "maximum wage" where you can only earn say $50 an hour. After all, it's not fair that I can earn $150 an hour to do a child's birthday party while someone else only gets to earn $10 an hour at McDonalds. Yeah, that is "not equal" ... and it *** well shouldn't be! Nobody is forcing anyone to work at McDonalds, if you don't like your job look for a better one. The stock market is open to the public, anyone can save their money and invest in Wall Street ... including you epoptika.

-JoeJoe
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On 2011-12-10 14:17, MagicDr wrote:
Genetic fallacy. Please try again...with your own logic. They are protesting those policies because it affects their ability to gain employment in the US, not elsewhere. Their intentions are not global


What is your point? None of the policies they are protesting changes that fact that they are among the richest 1% of the world's population.

My point is simple - they are trying to elicit public sympathy on a global scale by portraying themselves as a segment of the poorest population. They do this while playing on their laptops, talking on their cellphones, and sleeping in tents ... all while conspiring to starve the hungry homeless out of their protest.

Meanwhile African children are dying from malaria because they don't have a tent. The Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation has given away $26 billion dollars providing tents and laptops to the world's poorest of children ... and Warren Buffett has pledged to give 99% of his wealth to that Foundation.

And a part of the protester's platform is corporations outsourcing work to foreign countries ... which would only make them (the protesters) richer, and the poor (foreign workers) poorer. Isn't that exactly what they are protesting against? You are telling me with a straight face that you can't see the hypocrisy of this group?

I'm all in favor of keeping jobs in America, but I am not about telling people I am of the poorest 99% of the population when I am in fact part of the richest 1%. The more global their protest becomes, the more obvious this fact is.

-JoeJoe
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tom hughes
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"You are not going to take money out of my hat and put into yours! No no no ... how would you feel if I took money out of your hat and put into mine because you were a better busker? That is socialism."

Joejoe,

have you EVER read any socialist texts??? Taking money out of your hat and putting it in mine is NOT socialism and is not even remotely the economic system described by Karl Marx. Indeed, in a true Marxist economy a factory worker would receive exactly that which he or she generated... without a factory owner or any middleman taking a share... this is what Marx meant by the workers owning the means of production.

tom
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Dynamike
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I am not going to let the selfish ones get under my skin.
JoeJoe
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I don't mean "literally" taking money out of my hat and putting it into yours, I an referring to the "social ownership" of our hats.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socialism

Quote:
A socialist economy is based on public ownership or independent cooperative ownership of the means of production, wherein production is carried out to directly produce use-value, usually, but not always, coordinated through economic planning and a system of accounting based on calculation-in-kind or labor-time.


Under socialism, our tricks and routines ("means of production") would be controlled via "social ownership". That is why Russia and China do not enforce copyright laws - you write a song in China, it belongs to everyone. I'm not in favor of that. I am very much in favor of "property rights". What you grow on your farm, you keep ... what I grow on my farm, I keep. There should be no social ownership of my property.

Take "Tetris" for example ... despite being the developer of Tetris, A......vernment. American's do not tend to grasp this concept, because they don't realize that in Soviet Russia, the state owned the "means of production", thus you worked for the state, and anything you produced belonged to the state to be distributed by the state. After the state privatized, he purchased the rights and moved to Americ......Company" ... now he can keep what he grows on his farm.

I should point out that I myself am in favor of reducing the length of time of copyright protection ... say maybe 20 years ... as our current length of protection (exceeding the author's life) does not encourage the production of new materials. Meaning: if you write a hit song and can live off the royalties for your entire life, what incentive is there for you to write another hit song? Plus, production could be increased if others were allowed to build and adapt upon it. Example: if the Mickey Mouse copyright had been allowed to expire on schedule, others would be able to profit from it also.

At some point, your hit song should be placed into the public domain for the rest of society to benefit from also. So yeah, I believe there is room for reform. Absolutely. But not to the extent that "Adbusters" (the Occupy founders) would like - to the point where advertising goods and services should be banned.



A proletariat is somebody that owns no means of production, thus he can only sell his "labor". It is my belief that proletariat's do not exist in American society, as everybody has "opportunity" here! EVERYBODY! Eminem was raised as "white trailer trash" (his words, not mine) ... he is now one of the richest entertainers in the world. Obama was raised by single mom on welfare, and he is now considered the most powerful man in the free world. In America, everybody has access to the means of production.

The problem is people need to stop living beyond their means, that is to say ... stop consuming more than they produce.



-JoeJoe
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Mario Morris
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Joe Joe, I am glad I made feel warm and fuzzy, that's what Vee ,my wife says but I hope for different reasons.

I don't like to see insults made toward you.

Joe Joe with all due respect, from my perspective your arguments does seem to be a tag one sided and stereotyping.
Words such as THEY scare me. As far as I am concerned, soon as you say THEY you lost you argument.

Have a fuzzy day on me.
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I lost my glasses a couple of weeks ago. Every day is a fuzzy day for me!
"There's no time to lose," I heard her say.
"Catch your dreams before they slip away."
"Dying all the time, lose your dreams and you could lose your mind.
Ain't life unkind?"
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Yes Joe Joe,

but you're forgetting that the Soviet Union, and China, were never true proletariat revolutions and thus not truly socialist since neither country had... by the time of their revolutions... actually industrialized. The process of industrialization was, according to both Marx and Engels, a pre requisite to the rise of true proletariat class consciousness ( hence the fact that Maoism is considered to be a sub- sect, if you will, of Marxist political theory).

Oh, and even according to your wikipedia source, socialism may also allow for " independent cooperative ownership" of the means of production... this may be interpreted as meaning that we, as buskers, will have independent ownership of whatever we generate ourselves... thus your hat, and the money within, will be yours and yours alone in a socialist system. Indeed, the ultimate aim of a marxist socialist state is to promote the "withering away of the state" and consequently you would ultimately not "work for the state" since the state itself... would not exist. (I am not advocating this by the way, merely pointing out that this is the case in marxist theory). By the way... a proletariat IS part of the means of production... you can't produce anything without ANY workers.

And finally...everybody in America may have "opportunity" and there are a proportionately small number of success story anecdotes to support this hypothesis.... but let's be honest; if you are one of the 1% who are lucky enough to be born with a 40 percentile share of America's wealth then you really do have significantly more "opportunity" than the rest. Honestly I really can't fathom how anyone would be against a group whose ONLY declared intent is to against corporate greed... arguing against such an ideology is a little bit like saying "greed is good"...hold on, that sounds familiar!

best

tom
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Quote:
but you're forgetting that the Soviet Union, and China, were never true proletariat revolutions...


Blah blah blah ... word games.

Quote:
Oh, and even according to your wikipedia source, socialism may also allow for " independent cooperative ownership" of the means of production... this may be interpreted as meaning that we, as buskers, will have independent ownership of whatever we generate ourselves...


And whom must I "cooperate" with to have ownership of my own property? No ... I can't interpret "cooperative ownership" as "independent ownership"! A cooperative is defined as an "organization owned and operated by a group of individuals for their mutual benefit". More word games. I shouldn't have to cooperate with other buskers to own the routines that I write myself.



Quote:
And finally...everybody in America may have "opportunity" and there are a proportionately small number of success story anecdotes to support this hypothesis.... but let's be honest; if you are one of the 1% who are lucky enough to be born with a 40 percentile share of America's wealth then you really do have significantly more "opportunity" than the rest.


And if you are lucky enough to be born in America, then you really do have a significantly more "opportunity" over the rest of the world. Which is just confirming my original post on this thread, that these protesters are not the poorest 99%, that they are among the richest 1% of the world's population ... which according to the article is because of what you just said - where they were born. You keep saying the exact same thing I am saying.

Only for some odd reason you are right and I am wrong, because you only see "America" while I see the entire "World". Please explain to me what the difference is between the richest 1% of America ... and the richest 1% of the world? I am not seeing you make any actual points what-so-ever. Why does the notation that these protesters are the wealthiest 1% of the world's population upset so many of ya'all? [totally confused look]

Michael Moore and Russell Simmons will admit they are a part of this top 1%. I don't see the shame in being rich, what is your problem with being rich? What do you gain by denying you are among the richest 1% of the world's population?

And just a side note ... neither of them (Michael Moore and Russell Simmons) were born into the 1% of America, and my two previous examples (Eminem and Obama) were not even born into the top 1% of the entire World. As Americans, we have more opportunity than anyone else in the world ... and you want to replace the system that put us there (capitalism) with the system that has failed nearly everywhere else in the world (socialism)? There is not one "hard socialist" country left anywhere in the world - even China and Cuba have introduced capitalism using the code word "modernized economy".



Quote:
Honestly I really can't fathom how anyone would be against a group whose ONLY declared intent is to against corporate greed... arguing against such an ideology is a little bit like saying "greed is good"...hold on, that sounds familiar!


And this is why this conversation is so important ... your statement is false ... they have declared a lot more than ONLY an intent against corporate greed ... they have declared their intent to elect their own delegates from each congressional district in March, and in July those delegates will meet and ratify their demands. Their declaration includes 23 demands ... some of which have absolutely nothing to do with wall street reform what-so-ever:

http://www.the99declaration.org/read-the-99-declaration/

I don't see the need for a replacement government to be elected ... nor do I want them speaking on my behalf as a part of their 99% ... we already have elected officials, and I am perfectly capable of contacting my Congressman on my own thank you very much. The fact that Congress has not already enacted their demands is because a majority of Americans do not agree with them all, yet alone a 99% majority!

For example ... I don't care what your position on the "Defense of Marriage Act" is ... you know as well as I do that 99% of American's would not support it's repeal (demand #21). This is a blatant attempt by a special interests group to hi-jack democracy. It is a bald faced lie on their part to suggest that 99% of Americans want to repeal the DOMA. And I don't see how "corporate America" gives a rats rear end who is allowed to marry who, it is an issue that has absolutely nothing to do with corporate greed what-so-ever in any way, shape, or form!

This group has lied from their inception and you are not even aware that they have an "agenda", yet alone what it actually is. I see red flags flying everywhere and I am not just talking about "socialist banners" here.



-JoeJoe
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MagicDr
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Quote:
On 2011-12-10 16:58, JoeJoe wrote:
Quote:
On 2011-12-10 14:17, MagicDr wrote:
Genetic fallacy. Please try again...with your own logic. They are protesting those policies because it affects their ability to gain employment in the US, not elsewhere. Their intentions are not global


What is your point? None of the policies they are protesting changes that fact that they are among the richest 1% of the world's population.

My point is simple - they are trying to elicit public sympathy on a global scale by portraying themselves as a segment of the poorest population. They do this while playing on their laptops, talking on their cellphones, and sleeping in tents ... all while conspiring to starve the hungry homeless out of their protest.

Meanwhile African children are dying from malaria because they don't have a tent. The Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation has given away $26 billion dollars providing tents and laptops to the world's poorest of children ... and Warren Buffett has pledged to give 99% of his wealth to that Foundation.

And a part of the protester's platform is corporations outsourcing work to foreign countries ... which would only make them (the protesters) richer, and the poor (foreign workers) poorer. Isn't that exactly what they are protesting against? You are telling me with a straight face that you can't see the hypocrisy of this group?

I'm all in favor of keeping jobs in America, but I am not about telling people I am of the poorest 99% of the population when I am in fact part of the richest 1%. The more global their protest becomes, the more obvious this fact is.

-JoeJoe


The underlying assumption in your logic is that the protest is about handouts and that this issue is global. The group isn't organized globally - each group protests their about local issues regarding corporate money in government. No doubt, the opportunity to protest was hijacked by groups that aren't going to appeal to mainstream US, or have anything to do with what others are saying, but the general sentiment seems to revolve around what this guy is saying;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G4yDCUJJm_U&sns=fb

While this guy isn't directly involved in the OWS protests, he was able to explain the frustration very accurately and strongly
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Bums? Socialist Communes? Protesters?

Wow, why not put them all against the wall and shoot the bloody lot.

How I so admire your Country - some comments here truly demonstrate the 'democracy and freedom of speech for fellow man' that you hold so close to your loving hearts.

God Bless America! Smile
Barry Allen

Joe Riding (1932 - 2005). "I still miss you mate".
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I bet you guys can't catch up with the amount of pages in the following debate thread: http://www.themagiccafe.com/forums/viewt......&start=0
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