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The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » The side walk shuffle » » Street Busking in front of protesters (1 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

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mastermindreader
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Just as relevant today as it has always been:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wos-dDxpJlQ
epoptika
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[/quote]

The underlying assumption in your logic is that the protest is about handouts and that this issue is global. The group isn't organized globally - each group protests their about local issues regarding corporate money in government. No doubt, the opportunity to protest was hijacked by groups that aren't going to appeal to mainstream US, or have anything to do with what others are saying, but the general sentiment seems to revolve around what this guy is saying;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G4yDCUJJm_U&sns=fb

While this guy isn't directly involved in the OWS protests, he was able to explain the frustration very accurately and strongly
[/quote]

THIS IS WHAT OCCUPY WALL STREET IS ABOUT.

Money & Politics. I don't know who this guy is but he definitely gets it. Our congress is totally bought and paid for. Republicans & Democrats - with only a handful of exceptions. If you are happy with your government then you are just not paying attention to what is going on in this country.
epoptika
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Quote:
On 2011-12-11 11:09, mastermindreader wrote:
Just as relevant today as it has always been:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wos-dDxpJlQ


:applause:
epoptika
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And thank you Doc for the previous YouTube link!
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JoeJoe,

Did you ever even bother to actually read my post, beyond the part where I called you a flaming idiot? ( No apologies there. Feel free to return the favor. )

You say I have no idea what your political positions are because you have not posted them. I believe you have made your political positions very clear here, as have I. ( Why you chose to drag the whole gay marriage issue into the conversation is something of a puzzle to me? )

You protest that I have put words into your mouth. ( I did no such thing. Again, read my post. ) And yet, you seem to have no problem with claiming to know exactly what the tens of thousands of Occupy protesters are "demanding" based on a small percentage of participants waving "socialism" banners in their midst?

As for the minuscule number of crooks that have actually been prosecuted for their help in tanking our economy... I won't even get started on that subject.

Get back to me JoeJoe, when you have read the Bernie Sanders book.
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Quote:
On 2011-12-11 07:03, Merc Man wrote:
Bums? Socialist Communes? Protesters?

Wow, why not put them all against the wall and shoot the bloody lot.


I have nothing against bums, socialists, communists, or protesters ... I actually admire bums, as they were very good to me when I was homeless.

I do however have something about a few hundred people in Zuccotti Park speaking on my behalf and presenting themselves as representatives of me. I may be in the the 1% of the richest people in the world, but I'm still in the 99% of the people in America and for them to speak on my behalf is not acceptable.



Quote:
You say I have no idea what your political positions are because you have not posted them. I believe you have made your political positions very clear here, as have I. ( Why you chose to drag the whole gay marriage issue into the conversation is something of a puzzle to me? )


You have no idea if I am in favor of the Defense of Marriage Act or not ... I didn't tell you ... frankly, it's none of your business if I support gay marriage or not. For all you know ... I might even be gay ... or maybe I'm not ... nobody here really knows, now do ya?

I used it as an example to show that they are demanding things outside of the realm of "corporate greed". So people show up to this rally to protest against corporate greed, and then they use those people as leverage to pursue their own agenda.



Quote:
The underlying assumption in your logic is that the protest is about handouts and that this issue is global. The group isn't organized globally - each group protests their about local issues regarding corporate money in government.


Let's go look at their (Adbusters, the founders of this occupation) blog posts ... the "organized" portion of this rally ... let's read what the founders and organizers of this movement say for themselves:

http://www.adbusters.org/blogs/adbusters......ate.html

Quote:
Strategically speaking, there is a very real danger that if we naively put our cards on the table and rally around the "overthrow of capitalism" or some equally outworn utopian slogan, then our Tahrir moment will quickly fizzle into another inconsequential ultra-lefty spectacle soon forgotten. But if we have the cunning to come up with a deceptively simple Trojan Horse demand … something profound, yet so specific and doable that it is impossible for President Obama to ignore … something that spotlights Wall Street's financial capture of the US political system and confronts it with a pragmatic solution … like the reinstatement of the Glass-Steagall Act … or a 1% tax on financial transactions … or an independent investigation by the U.S. Department of Justice into the corporate corruption of our representatives in Washington … or another equally creative but downright practical demand that will emerge from the people's assemblies held during the occupation … and if we then put our asses on the line, screw up our courage and hang in there day after day, week after week, until a large swath of Americans start rooting for us and President Obama is forced to respond … then we just might have a crack at creating a decisive moment of truth for America, a first concrete step towards achieving the radical changes we all dream about unencumbered by commitments to existing power structures.


So they publicly admit they want to overthrow capitalism by using a "Trojan Horse" demand to deceive people into rooting for their agenda to force radical changes on society. I'm having issues that!

Sadly, their plan is working exactly as they want it too ... people are here defending their cunningly deceptive "one demand" to overthrow capitalism without even knowing what the rest of their agenda even is.

When they open that horse, and you suddenly find your routines are now "social property", and they impose a "maximum hourly wage" on what you can charge to do shows ... remember that I warned you it was a Trojan Horse!



-JoeJoe
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The Mighty Fool
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On 2011-12-10 16:57, JoeJoe wrote:
This was inspired by Cairo's Tahrir Square.


Scary aint it?? That action thousnads of miles away not even aimed at us seems to be having more effct than a terrorist bomb on our home soil! Make no mistake: The pen truly IS mightier!

Quote:
Free health care for everyone ... free college for everyone ... free houses for everyone ... and free food for everyone (everyone except the homeless that is). It would be nice for our lifetime ... maybe our children's ...


Now THAT'S an overly-optomistic estimate!! If we went onto the pan-socialist agenda these occupy-idiots want us to be on, I'd give it mabye 8 years before the expenses outstripped the gradually-decreasing wealth-production, and 20 years MAX before the country was skunk-broke!
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The Mighty Fool
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Here's a way I see the whole wealth-greed-socialist......thing:

The millionare, who has worked, studied and sacrificed to acheive his wealth, gives 5% of what he makes to charity--let's say $50'000.

The Social-activist (such as many of the slobs seen in Zuccotti park) who has made little or nothing of his life, gives little or NOTHING to charity, yet he calls the millionare STINGY and GREEDY and MEAN for only giving 5%.
Now that's Chutzpah!
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mastermindreader
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As a lifelong "social activist" who regularly gives to charity and who, I think, has made a good deal of his life, I guess you would have to characterize me as just another "slob" from Zucotti Park.

Personally, I prefer to think of myself as an American.


Power to the People!
Mario Morris
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JoeJoe
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Quote:
On 2011-12-11 15:25, The Mighty Fool wrote:
yet he calls the millionare STINGY and GREEDY and MEAN for only giving 5%.


Selfish ... you forgot selfish, don't forget selfish.



Quote:
On 2011-12-11 18:48, mastermindreader wrote:
As a lifelong "social activist" who regularly gives to charity and who, I think, has made a good deal of his life, I guess you would have to characterize me as just another "slob" from Zucotti Park.


I don't think you are a slob or an idiot ... but this isn't about you, nor is it about "social activists". It is about the core group of the occupiers that are leading the rest of the group. Their claim that this is "leaderless" is false, just another one of their lies. If there is a "Trojan Horse" as they called it, then somebody built it and somebody is hiding inside it.

That is who I am talking about.



Quote:
On 2011-12-11 20:54, Mario Morris wrote:
Hear is another banger, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=37POTHqjZIQ


I like what the preacher guy has to say, more warm fuzzy feelings thank you. But it still doesn't change the fact that this protest is a "cunning deception" with a single "Trojan Horse demand" that will "emerge from the people's assemblies held during the occupation" with the intention of over-throwing the free market by forcing "radical change".

For any democracy to be successful - even a "socialist democracy" - then it must be honest. How about this for an idea for reform ... when Martha Stewart lied ... she went to jail.

-JoeJoe
Amazing JoeJoe on YouTube[url=https://www.youtube.com/user/AmazingJoeJoe]
mastermindreader
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Joejoe-

It's not about you, either, as I was clearly responding the The Mighty Fool's post. He directly referred to the "socialist activists" of Zucotti Park as "slobs."

As to the purpose of the protests- It's all about what one of the founding fathers of our democracy once wrote:

Quote:
We may have democracy, or we may have wealth concentrated in the hands of a few, but we can't have both.

-John Adams (1814)
The Mighty Fool
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On 2011-12-12 02:03, mastermindreader wrote:
Joejoe-

It's not about you, either, as I was clearly responding the The Mighty Fool's post. He directly referred to the "socialist activists" of Zucotti Park as "slobs."


Oops....did I TYPE that instead of just thinking it? Silly me.

Quote:
As to the purpose of the protests- It's all about what one of the founding fathers of our democracy once wrote:

Quote:
We may have democracy, or we may have wealth concentrated in the hands of a few, but we can't have both.

-John Adams (1814)



Well, first off, it's a republic, in which we have a representitive democratic process. The founding fathers knew full-well that if they made it a straight 'democarcy' (which is to say a DIRECT democracy) then the slobs........ah......I mean the uhm....wonderful masses would simply vote themselves gifts from the teasury in the form of services / wages.
As for "wealth being concentrated in the hands of a few", the ultra-wealthy DO have power (double DUH) but not to the extent that I would call us a plutocracy, which is what I think Adams had in mind. The wealth in this country is spread-out remarkably well compared to a lot of others, it's just that here, the wealth goes much,much, MUCH higher than anywhere else, creating a whole new category of wealth-class not found in most other countries, and where it DOES exist, in very small numbers. When the squeaky-clean, articulate self-annointed representitives of the wonderful masses rant about how unfair the wealth-distribution is here, it's that extra exclusive American class theyre talking about. Even if that class did compose only 1% of the population (3 million) that would only prove just what a specTACular nation this is.
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mastermindreader
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My, how smarmily condescending you are to us rabble.

Two other founding fathers were equally as prescient as Adams:


Quote:
Jefferson and Madison proposed an 11th Amendment to the Constitution that would "ban monopolies in commerce," making it illegal for corporations to own other corporations, banning them from giving money to politicians or trying to influence elections in any way, restricting corporations to a single business purpose, limiting the lifetime of a corporation to something roughly similar to that of productive humans (20 to 40 years back then), and requiring that the first purpose for which all corporations were created be "to serve the public good."

http://www.commondreams.org/views03/0101-07.htm


That pretty much is what we "socialist activist slobs" are arguing.
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Forgot to add that, as one who practiced constitutional and criminal law for ten years, I am quite aware that our representative democracy is a republic. DOH! I would also note that income disparity in the country is greater now than during any period since just before the Great Depression. And that is largely due to the very problem that Adams, Jefferson and Madison envisaged.
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Well I'm a die-hard Socialist. Always have been and I always will be. That probably makes me (no doubt in some people's eyes) as worthless as something on your shoe that you've trodden in.

Lets be honest here; given the state of your economy, why do a lot of people fear Socialism in the USA.....it's not as if successive right-wing policies are doing you much good - are they?

The way some people talk in this thread, someone really ought to tell them that the Cold War is over!
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mastermindreader
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Well said, Merc Man.
The Mighty Fool
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Quote:
On 2011-12-12 04:05, mastermindreader wrote:
I would also note that income disparity in the country is greater now than during any period since just before the Great Depression. And that is largely due to the very problem that Adams, Jefferson and Madison envisaged.


Ah, 'income disparity'...where to begin....?

First, it's one of those terms / catchphrases which socialists use for pure effect. Instaed of saying 'inequality' or 'income gap', they say disparity, probably because it sounds more evil, like 'despair'. That's pure opinion on my part of course.

Income disparity is indeed bigger than it's ever been, but that's because there's more money / wealth / property than there's ever been. When the income gap grows, what exactly does that mean? The poorest workers obviously cant go below minwage (unless theyre tipped) so for the gap to be increasing, it must be increasing in an UPWARD direction. In other words, the rich get richer, and the poor stay the same. Thing is, it's not just the rich who get richer, the middle-class usualy comes along for the ride.

Now, how would you propose to FIX this income disparity...how should we humble those evil ones that DARE to have / make more than the poor? Jack up the minwage to, say, $35 an hour? That will drive prices sky-high and result in something like 40% unemployment. Or....perhaps levy massive taxes aimed solely at the richest & their companies? Then use the funds to shower the poor with every possible benift until the slums become a sybarite's paradise? In doing that, youre basicly creating an incentive to be poor, and discouraging becoming wealthy / sucsessful. Once you pass those taxes, you'll get tons of money for one year, and the next year...not even 1/4 of that ammount. Because the wealthy / producers simply wont be trying as hard to make the wealth any longer. Unemployment will again, go up, and worse, the government will no longer have the necessary funds to continue it's dole of free services to the poor, and will have to either raise taxes AGAIN, or try to cut back on the benefits, resulting in an embarrasing hissy-fit by the poor as seen in Greece.

"A nation trying to tax itself into prosperity is as idiotic as a man standing in a bucket, and trying to lift himself off the ground by means of the handle!"
---Winston Churchill
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Quote:
On 2011-12-12 04:42, Merc Man wrote:
Lets be honest here; given the state of your economy, why do a lot of people fear Socialism in the USA.....it's not as if successive right-wing policies are doing you much good - are they?


The economy will bounce back. It always has. It always does. It always will. How many times does that have to happen before the socialists ADMIT it? Whenever the economy (of a capitalist nation that is) is having trouble, the socialists jump up & down waving their arms shouting "See? See? I told you!" Then when it (INVARIABLY) swings back up...richer than ever...they just switch back to the 'income disparity' thing, and wait for the next dip. This roller-coaster which is capitalism may be more turbulent & risky than the merry-go-round which is socialism, but it's a better ride. For all it's risks and unfairness, capitalism ALWAYS produces more and / or better of everything.
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mastermindreader
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I guess you consider Jefferson and Madison to have been "socialists" as well, given their belief that corporations' primary purposes should be for the public good. (See reference in my earlier post.)

"Capitalism produces more and better of everything." Of course, the actual production is done by overseas workers to whom our corporations have farmed out our jobs. thus reducing the expendable income of those Americans who can no longer afford to buy their products.

You remind me of those gilded age shipping moguls who declared "The Titanic is unsinkable." So just keep on rearranging the deck chairs while we "socialist slobs" try to save the ship.
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