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The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » Not very magical, still... » » US Has Greater Inequality than Egypt, Tunisia? (0 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

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balducci
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Quote:
On 2011-11-20 18:53, LobowolfXXX wrote:

Quote:
On 2011-11-20 18:34, Dannydoyle wrote:
John, I believe there should be an equality of opportunity. This is important and essential in America. But an equality of OUTCOME is not the job of any government. I am not suggesting you said this, just pointing out the difference.


I agree; having said that, inequality of outcome will always be trumpeted as proof of inequality of opportunity.

Agreed, at least so far as that an inequality of outcome at any static point in time is certainly not proof of inequality of opportunity.

But if you track the change in inequality of outcome over time (and look at the proper statistics and understand what you are looking at), then that certainly is some evidence of inequality of opportunity.

There have been quite a lot of studies indicating that there is a growing divide in the U.S., and that "income inequality is real, and growing". Even FoxNews is starting to admit the latter (it is from there that I got the quote above):

http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2011/11/2......quality/

Now whether a growing inequality of outcome is a good or bad thing ... that is another topic (e.g., see Fox article which argues that it doesn't matter).

But when some people here simply deny that there is a growing divide between the rich and the poor (*) ... I can't take the rest of their comments or opinions on the subject very seriously at all.

(*) Not including you here necessarily, as I am not exactly sure where you stand on that.
Make America Great Again! - Trump in 2020 ... "We're a capitalistic society. I go into business, I don't make it, I go bankrupt. They're not going to bail me out. I've been on welfare and food stamps. Did anyone help me? No." - Craig T. Nelson, actor.
Dannydoyle
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The myth is that an equal opportunity will provide an equal outcome.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus
<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
rockwall
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US Has Greater Inequality than Egypt, Tunisia?

I guess the only answer to the topic title should have been; Thank goodness!
landmark
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Really?
Magnus Eisengrim
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As Darwin noted in the Voyage of the Beagle

"If the misery of our poor be caused not by the laws of nature, but by our institutions, great is our sin."

The problem is figuring out what is what.

John
The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere
The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
The best lack all conviction, while the worst
Are full of passionate intensity.--Yeats
Dannydoyle
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The problem is thinking we are all equal in the first place.
Danny Doyle
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<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
landmark
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"We hold these truths to be self-evident . . ."
Nah, it'd never catch on.
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I think it's self-evident that they're (we're) equal in terms of rights. I think it's even more self-evident that they're (we're) created decidedly unequal with respect to abilities, work ethic, etc., and that those are factors that may very likely result in an unequal distribution of wealth between people with equal opportunities.
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
landmark
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People born into different economic and ethnic circumstances do not have equal opportunities in US society.
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Quote:
On 2011-11-24 23:06, landmark wrote:
People born into different economic and ethnic circumstances do not have equal opportunities in US society.


1) Could a system be devised in which everyone has equal opportunity in US society?
1a) Should it?
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
landmark
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1) We can lower the bar: Could a system be devised in which opportunity is substantially more equal than it is now? Yes.
1a) Yes. (See above the bit about we hold these truths . . .)
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But why lower the bar? The part about holding the truths to be self-evidence was about equality, stated in the document as an absolute; not about being "substantially more equal."
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
landmark
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I see; all ideals must be achieved perfectly, otherwise make no attempt at all to improve.
A convenient philosophy if one wants not to change anything, I suppose.
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On 2011-11-25 09:50, landmark wrote:
I see; all ideals must be achieved perfectly, otherwise make no attempt at all to improve.
A convenient philosophy if one wants not to change anything, I suppose.


Only if your philosophy of improvement leads to equality like Egypt and Tunisia.
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I think we get stuck on "all or nothing". Can things be better than they are?

Maybe the easiest way to get at the basic issue is to think of children. My children are healthy, they have all the resources they need to become anything they want. They have educated parents who encourage and assist them in their education. Did they earn this? Are they more deserving of their advantages than the children of, say, homeless crack addicts?

Do we as a society wish to confer benefits on the winners of the lottery of birth? Or should we do something to equalize opportunity, even if we can't do it perfectly?

John
The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere
The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
The best lack all conviction, while the worst
Are full of passionate intensity.--Yeats
Dannydoyle
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Better for whom?

If by making things "substantially more equal" you mean that someone gets penalised, how is that fair?

Why is it that everyone looks at "fairness" from the point of view of those being helped, and not from those being punished. For that is what it is.
Danny Doyle
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<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
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Quote:
On 2011-11-25 09:50, landmark wrote:
I see; all ideals must be achieved perfectly, otherwise make no attempt at all to improve.
A convenient philosophy if one wants not to change anything, I suppose.


I'm trying to understand your philosophy. Are you saying that perfect equality of opportunity is the ideal? If so, that was something I didn't realize, and that's why I phrased my question the way I did.
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
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Quote:
On 2011-11-25 11:28, Magnus Eisengrim wrote:
I think we get stuck on "all or nothing". Can things be better than they are?

Maybe the easiest way to get at the basic issue is to think of children. My children are healthy, they have all the resources they need to become anything they want. They have educated parents who encourage and assist them in their education. Did they earn this? Are they more deserving of their advantages than the children of, say, homeless crack addicts?

Do we as a society wish to confer benefits on the winners of the lottery of birth? Or should we do something to equalize opportunity, even if we can't do it perfectly?

John


Or maybe the easiest way to get at the basic issue is to think of you. You made good choices, you got an education, you stayed out of prison, you've amassed enough resources for your children to become anything they want. Are you deserving of the right to use your wealth to benefit your children?
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
Magnus Eisengrim
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But what makes my children more worthy of my resources than someone who was born less fortunately?
The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere
The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
The best lack all conviction, while the worst
Are full of passionate intensity.--Yeats
LobowolfXXX
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Beats me; maybe nothing. Should it be your discretion, or someone else's notion of "worthiness," that dictates whom your money goes to benefit?
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
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