Regan- excelent post my friend way to step it up!

Doug - while I disagree with the idea of "higher Intelligence" and believe there to be only One God and only one way to heaven (thru Jesus) I agree with you that God has had a hand in this conversation. maybe it was just for me maybe for Regan or maybe for you and just maybe for all of us involved you're right God works in mysterious ways and we can not begin to understand why He does some things. but it is not for us to always understand but rather be obedient to His word

as for the Proof that God exist I am not talking just about things that "could" be explained as being God I am talking about things that can "ONLY" be explained by God.
I realize what I am about to share will draw attacks - I will be called a nutjob weirdo and what ever else but I can not stand by keep this to myself.
many time when I am preaching at churches I become torn on what to share and what not to share and each time I have had to pray and trust the Lord that my words are not my own but HIS.

I grew up in the church my dad is a pastor now full time missionary. growing up with your dad being the pastor you get to hear all the ins and outs of pretty much everything that goes on in the church. over the years I witnessed healings, rain storms being held off, money being provided beyond belief, and so much more.

I remember one woman who had a brain tumor the docotors were skeptical as to if it was operatable. it was rather large and cause much discomfort. cat scans show it getting worse. ove the course of a year my dad and others prayed not only for healing for her but that His will be done that what ever the outcome God would be glorified thru it. finally it came time to have an operation there is no other choice. best guess is 50/50 chance she lives but if does not have the operation 100% chance she will die. my dad and some from the church got together the week before the operation and prayed for hours gloryfying God thru out their prayers. 3 days later she went to the hospital for preperations of the operation. the performed the final cat scan and well FREAKED out the tumor was GONE! yes gone. explain that to me. you cant! only the awesome power of God could have healed this woman! that my friends is proof.

for me when I was 19 I told God that I did not believe in him any more that He was not real. this God stuff was a joke and getting me no where. that very night I laid in my bed and as always I put on some music recorded on tape cassete. (dang remember those) I began to have a conversation with God - ok maybe not a conversation this time but I was telling God all the reasons I could not believe in him any more.
I ended my prayer with a simple statement - God I know you are real I know that you love me but I need you are here as I am going thru these difficult time in life I need you to deliver me from all that is keeping me form drawing closer to you, in jesus name Amen--instantly just as the N on Amen was rolling off my tounge on the tape played two sets of footprints in the sand (being read by the DJ, I don't remember recording this but there it is) then a song played by Denny corell called "I will be with you".

what you need to know is that this was recoreded right in the middle of another song and although back in that day I would record music off the radio I do not ever remember recorded these. Nor would I ever record them in the middle of another song.

I find 2 things interesting about this.
one- the song by denny corell , one of the lines says "Your prayer for deliverence will not be denied, for I am the Lord"
second - you can not say it was just dumb luck that I happen to put that tape in on that side at that moment and that I prayed exactly that amount of time and ask such specific request and that the two sets of foot prints began the very moment I finished praying - not 10 seconds later not 5 seconds before but at the very moment I finished. that the song title "I will be with you" the line in the song "your prayer for deliverence will not be denied for I am the lord"

there is no other answer - as I have said before and I will say it again if you are willing to seek God... really seek Him and truly desire to know Him YOU WILL FIND HIM, and the veil will be lifted from your eyes.

this is the song:

I will be with you in joy and in pain
Your cry for mercy echoes My name
Now and forever I’ll be at hand
I will be with you, I will be with you
For that’s who I am

I’ll be with you, I’ll be on your side
Your prayer for deliverance will not be denied
I’ll fight the battles that evil might wage
I will be with you, I will be with you
Till the end of the age

I will be with you, I will be with you

Now and forever I’ll be at hand
I will be with you, I will be with you
For that’s who I am

I will be with you, there’s no need to fear
How can they harm you
When I hold you dear
Your life is in My life come peril or sword
I will be with you, I will be with you
For I am the Lord




Copyright © 1988 Maranatha! Music. All rights reserved. International copyright secured.

sam

WOW!!!!

I figure next next few posts will be written in tounges!

Ken, I apologise. When I said all christians except Sam had been arrogant, I was playing to the gallery for dramatic effect. Many have been very arrogant, but you are not among that number. A few debated the issues with dignity and passion.

But I think this has run its course, as the following illustrates:

If evidence and facts are of no importance, we are moving into fairytale country. I love fairytales - but I don't debate them. Sam went off to consult with experts, and came back with the dimensions of the arc and the date of creation - 8,000 years ago. Experts in what, I wonder?

Mighty Fool said:In a land where you can follow whatever belief-system you like, without any terrible consequences from the state, THAT is where we must look to find out what religion is indeed the most preffered or popular. Of course, you've probably guessed that I wouldnt be SAYING this if I didn't already know what the result of such research would be...HAS been actually. Christianity wins by a narrow margin.

I presume the utopia you speak of is America. If so, you are very blinkered. Try being a muslim in America in the past ten years (or during the civil rights struggle in the sixties, or indeed at any time) and you will see the lie of that statement. Try being a communist and running for public office, or even keeping your job. America may be the home of the brave, but it is not, and rarely has been, the land of the free. You are a right of centre, religiously rigid society.

Much of the world - including vast tracts of Europe, have become secular in the past fifty years. Ireland has gone from 90% practicing catholic to 30%, and falling. The UK, France, and Spain have all gone the same way. Your research contradicts my research. That's the problem with being very selective in your outlook - and with believing evidence does not matter.

I am off to Lapland for a very happy Christmas, and I wish all of you the same.

So getting back on subject what's the more appropriate thing to say at Easter; "Happy Chocolate day" or "Merry Zombie Anniversary"?

It is not unheard of for tumors to go into remission or vanish completely. In fact the National Brain tumor Society has trhis to say on their webpage. "A brain tumor that has been treated with radiation or chemotherapy may disappear or remain in remission, a state in which the tumor cells stop multiplying. Remission can be temporary or permanent. It is not possible to predict whether or not recurrence will take place."

So sorry, I just don't see god(s) being at all responsible for this event. I am glad the woman overcame her affliction but one would really have to question the supposed "All Loving Nature" of your god(s) for it to put this poor woman, as well as her friends and family through such an ordeal. Does an entity that inflicts such pain and suffering upon its followers seemingly for its own jolly's really deserve worship?



Yet there are other answers. You just stopped looking when you came across the one that satisfied your needs and met your requirements.

My wife is deeply religious. Many years ago I was required to go to Anchorage on a business trip. My wife had a cousin that lived there and she wanted me to look her up when I arrived. Unfortunately this cousin had recently gotten married so my wife didn't know her new name so she had no way for me to find her. That night she prayed to her god(s) to help her find this dear cousin of hers that she had not seen in many years.
The next afternoon I called my wife from Anchorage and told her that I had found her cousin. She was sitting next to me on the plane as she had just spemt the weekend in Seattle but too did not know how to get a hold of my wife.
No doubt you would see this as proof of god(s) existence and its mysterious ways. Others like myself with a more skeptical nature would doubt the veracity of this story.
But I can say that this story is mostly true. The two minor fibs in it are that this cousin wasn't sitting right next to me. She was across the aisle but in the same row. But most importantly my wife is not deeply religious 9in fact she is now an unbeliever like me) so she never prayed to god(s) or even considered asking it for aid or deliverence in this matter. It's what one calls a coincidence. They happen all the time to people all over the world. People of a spiritual mindset will attribute these chance encounters to acts of god(s) while the more rational amongst us will simply seem them as chance encounters.

It's Happy Chocolate Bunny Day, and don't you forget it it! Happy Chocolate Day could refer to any confection based holiday.

Excuse me for intruding guys. But if I ever get into a political rebate I want each one of you on my team.

Payne sorry but I do not believe tumors vanish in mere weeks! she had been checked just a few weeks before and the large tumor was there. she had not received any treatment therefor yes I believe it was a miricle!

No do no think there are other answers and I have not stopped searching - I search every day however God continues to meet my needs and prove himself real.

your plane experience does not sound like a miracle but who knows - then again if you stand out side in the rain - you will get wet, some times things are just dumb luck other times the Orchestrated by God. the thing is we as believers work to know God more and more each day thus learning what is of God and what is not. I have not perfected it but have learned much over the years. the scriptues say the sheep will know the shepards voice.

this have been fun and obviously we disagree and that is fine. I trully hope I get to meet some of you in person one day.

magically yours

sam

ps Dynamike feel free to call me anytime!

Thank you. You've done pretty well yourself.



Utopia?? Heavens no!! I wouldnt call this land 'o mine that by a long-shot, but we're working on it...we are an experiment after all.
There were numerous countries on the list, but yes, the U.S. is one of them, and as for being a Muslim here its a whole heluva lot easier than youre making it out to be. Remember, I said no religious oppression BY THE STATE. Rude / mean treatment from one's neighbors is unfortunate, but it dosent count. In a number of incidents and court cases, when a Muslim inerest / person was being unfairly excluded / picked-on, the courts stepped in and sided with the Muslim.
Whether we're 'right-of-center' kind of depends on who's in Washington at any given time, but how in the WORLD can you possibly think we're 'religiously ridgid'?? No state-religion...all faiths can and DO exist and thrive here...Roe vs. Wade...the Scopes monkey-trials...seperation of Church & State. It's true that the Puritans fled here to establish a land of religious ridgidity, but now we are exactly the sort of land puritans would flee FROM.



Does England not have a state church? It wasnt one of the countries listed as having no national vestment in a particular religion.

Merry Christamas to you as well, Have fun in Lapland....that's like, in Norway or something right??

I would argue that Payne's experience finding his wife's cousin was precisely the way "God" or the "Higher Intelligence" works. I have witnessed many, many "coincidences" similar to this, and some significantly more unlikely. I also had the existence of HI proved to me in a way that is, in my opinion, irrefutable - and I continue to experience this same proof over and over again....which has served to reinforce my absolute certainty that an intelligent force plays a vital role in pretty much everything that goes on.
I see no reason to consider science as opposing the existence of HI. In my opinion, science is merely unravelling the immense complexity of the "Grand Design".
Sam, the story of your conversion to faith also sounds exactly the way HI works.....you were given proof of an Intelligence greater than your own, working through the Universe around you.....but what convinced you that it was the "God of the Bible"?
Doug

Mighty Fool, in the US you consider yourselves a liberal and free society. The rest of the world views the US as a country dominated by religion - not like the Middle East, but to an extent we would not tolerate in Europe. Could an openly atheist candidate be elected to high office in your country? Whenever there are major elections we keep hearing about the candidates religions, and what church they go to, and what pastor they listen to. We get none of that over here. No candidate over here would get into trouble because of what their pastor said (assuming we even knew who their pastor was, which is staggeringly unlikely). Yet Obama had to distance himself from one pastor, when it looked like costing him votes in the last presidential election.

Your laws enshrine liberty, but you are a christian, right of centre, society, no matter who is in the Oval office. The only difference between Democrat and Republican is how right you drift.

And to answer the other question, Lapland does indeed cover northern Norway, as well as Sweeden and Finland, drifting over the border into Russia. I will be in the Finnish section in a few hours, knocking back a good single malt with Santa. Seasons greetings to all.

Doug, I like that. Excellent post. I was thinking almost the same thing.

I too have witnessed many, (too many to count) "coincidences" happening at just the right moment. Makes you wonder, how many coincidences strung together does it take to make a miracle?

I personally appreciate all the little coincidences I get. I've certainly gotten more than my fair share over my lifetime. Keep in mind, just because it doesn't always look like a magic trick doesn't mean God didn't have a hand in it. God doesn't have to prove anything to anybody. He can simply connect all the dots because he is a God.

It all comes down to what you looking for. Our mind is programmed to see what we expect to see. Plenty of miracles out there if you only open your eyes. Reminds me of my own quote: "You may not always believe what you see, but you do always see what you believe."


Now my weekend quote:

"I can see how it might be possible for a man to look down upon the earth and be an atheist, but I cannot conceive how he could look up into the heavens and say there is no God." --Abraham Lincoln


Tom

[quote]On 2011-12-10 08:57, TomBoleware wrote:

I believe the "Shakesperean Ceiling" mentioned earlier is a good definition of the number of coincidences required to prove that something is a miracle. Though I have always held this opinion: If the number of particles in the Universe is greater than the number of possible outcomes of any particular series of "coincidences", then one highly unlikely outcome can still be argued to be a valid possibility, somewhere, sometime. But if the number of potential outcomes of the series of coincidences exceeds the number of particles in the Universe, then the chance of it occurring is so infintesimally small, that logic would dictate that there must have been purpose behind those particular coincidences.
This is for me, the first step of logic along the path to enlightenment.
If and when (almost certainly when) any particular individual is presented with such a series of imposssible coincidences, it is possible to accept that perhaps there is some kind of intelligent design within the pattern of events which have occurred.
From there on, things are relatively simple. The more you learn to notice the coincidences around you, the more you become aware that there are constant opportunities arising, to learn from this Higher Intelligence. You will be taught the way you must live your life, and the better you can communicate with "God", or whatever you wish to call it, the faster you will be able to learn. A coincidence, however small, is a sign that you could benefit by stepping back, and looking at this situation from a different (perhaps Spiritual) perspective. That there is more to this than meets the eye.
I firmly believe that at a fundamental level, the laws of "chance" are controlled by this Higher Intelligence. And that includes Las Vegas. Casinos know that there is such a thing as a "run of luck"....and when they see someone with it, they hope to shift them off to a competitor!
It's all done, I think, at a molecular level....but those things are for scientists to discover. Sadly, research into the really fascinating stuff, like where emotions come from, does "luck" exist, etc, is badly underfunded. Of course, they're all connected with revealing and understanding the Myth of "God".
Doug

This is why I prefer Satan over god. These are true of mankind and I believe in what I see and don't rely on fairtales to guide me. Since the christian bible is quoted why not quote the Nine Satanic Statements from the Satanic Bible written by Anton LaVey "the Black Pope".

1. Satan represents indulgence instead of abstinence!
2. Satan represents vital existence instead of spiritual pipe dreams!
3. Satan represents undefiled wisdom instead of hypocritical self-deceit!
4. Satan represents kindness to those who deserve it instead of love wasted on ingrates!
5. Satan represents vengeance instead of turning the other cheek!
6. Satan represents responsibility to the responsible instead of concern for psychic vampires!
7. Satan represents man as just another animal, sometimes better, more often worse than those that walk on all-fours, who, because of his “divine spiritual and intellectual development,” has become the most vicious animal of all!
8. Satan represents all of the so-called sins, as they all lead to physical, mental, or emotional gratification!
9. Satan has been the best friend the Church has ever had, as He has kept it in business all these years!

Merry Merry Satanmas to all.

Posted: Dec 10, 2011 6:13pm
The Eleven Satanic Rules of the Earth

by Anton Szandor LaVey ©1967 (Year 1 of our LORD)

1. Do not give opinions or advice unless you are asked.
2. Do not tell your troubles to others unless you are sure they want to hear them.
3. When in another’s lair, show him respect or else do not go there.
4. If a guest in your lair annoys you, treat him cruelly and without mercy.
5. Do not make sexual advances unless you are given the mating signal.
6. Do not take that which does not belong to you unless it is a burden to the other person and he cries out to be relieved.
7. Acknowledge the power of magic if you have employed it successfully to obtain your desires. If you deny the power of magic after having called upon it with success, you will lose all you have obtained.
8. Do not complain about anything to which you need not subject yourself.
9. Do not harm little children.
10. Do not kill non-human animals unless you are attacked or for your food.
11. When walking in open territory, bother no one. If someone bothers you, ask him to stop. If he does not stop, destroy him.


The Nine Satanic Sins
by Anton Szandor LaVey ©1987 (Year 21 of our LORD)

1. Stupidity—The top of the list for Satanic Sins. The Cardinal Sin of Satanism. It’s too bad that stupidity isn’t painful. Ignorance is one thing, but our society thrives increasingly on stupidity. It depends on people going along with whatever they are told. The media promotes a cultivated stupidity as a posture that is not only acceptable but laudable. Satanists must learn to see through the tricks and cannot afford to be stupid.

2. Pretentiousness—Empty posturing can be most irritating and isn’t applying the cardinal rules of Lesser Magic. On equal footing with stupidity for what keeps the money in circulation these days. Everyone’s made to feel like a big shot, whether they can come up with the goods or not.

3. Solipsism—Can be very dangerous for Satanists. Projecting your reactions, responses and sensibilities onto someone who is probably far less attuned than you are. It is the mistake of expecting people to give you the same consideration, courtesy and respect that you naturally give them. They won’t. Instead, Satanists must strive to apply the dictum of “Do unto others as they do unto you.” It’s work for most of us and requires constant vigilance lest you slip into a comfortable illusion of everyone being like you. As has been said, certain utopias would be ideal in a nation of philosophers, but unfortunately (or perhaps fortunately, from a Machiavellian standpoint) we are far from that point.

4. Self-deceit—It’s in the “Nine Satanic Statements” but deserves to be repeated here. Another cardinal sin. We must not pay homage to any of the sacred cows presented to us, including the roles we are expected to play ourselves. The only time self-deceit should be entered into is when it’s fun, and with awareness. But then, it’s not self-deceit!

5. Herd Conformity—That’s obvious from a Satanic stance. It’s all right to conform to a person’s wishes, if it ultimately benefits you. But only fools follow along with the herd, letting an impersonal entity dictate to you. The key is to choose a master wisely instead of being enslaved by the whims of the many.

6. Lack of Perspective—Again, this one can lead to a lot of pain for a Satanist. You must never lose sight of who and what you are, and what a threat you can be, by your very existence. We are making history right now, every day. Always keep the wider historical and social picture in mind. That is an important key to both Lesser and Greater Magic. See the patterns and fit things together as you want the pieces to fall into place. Do not be swayed by herd constraints—know that you are working on another level entirely from the rest of the world.

7. Forgetfulness of Past Orthodoxies—Be aware that this is one of the keys to brainwashing people into accepting something new and different, when in reality it’s something that was once widely accepted but is now presented in a new package. We are expected to rave about the genius of the creator and forget the original. This makes for a disposable society.

8. Counterproductive Pride—That first word is important. Pride is great up to the point you begin to throw out the baby with the bathwater. The rule of Satanism is: if it works for you, great. When it stops working for you, when you’ve painted yourself into a corner and the only way out is to say, I’m sorry, I made a mistake, I wish we could compromise somehow, then do it.

9. Lack of Aesthetics—This is the physical application of the Balance Factor. Aesthetics is important in Lesser Magic and should be cultivated. It is obvious that no one can collect any money off classical standards of beauty and form most of the time so they are discouraged in a consumer society, but an eye for beauty, for balance, is an essential Satanic tool and must be applied for greatest magical effectiveness. It’s not what’s supposed to be pleasing—it’s what is. Aesthetics is a personal thing, reflective of one’s own nature, but there are universally pleasing and harmonious configurations that should not be denied.

AMEN and Happy Holidays.

Ah yes. Anton Lavey- former carnival roustabout and, according to Robert Anton Wilson, a notorious send-up artist. His "Satanic Bible" was just another joke he played on the "rubes" who filled his bank account.

He's probably laughing in his grave at the notion that anyone actually took him seriously.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anton_LaVey

You are absolutely correct. He starts his Bible with his backgroud working in the carnival. One story that stands out is that he saw the same men in the sunday worship service the night before at the saloon and woman show. You see he was the organist for each.

As for laughing in his grave, I believe this to be so. Atleast he did it with all knowing he was robbing them and not like Jim Bakker and others the like. It clearly states that to be a member all you have to do is purchase your way in, a one time donation to him. Not like the 10% that god requires each month. Is god really that bad with money that he always needs it?

As for it being a joke, right again. He even states that in the Satanic Bible that it was written to make fun of the christian bible. Although it was intended to make fun it has a lot of truth in it as it is common sense as man is man and no matter what he does on Sunday it doesn't hide what he does on Saturday night.

Are his words any less false than those of jesus? The mere fact that he called himself the "Black Pope" showed his contempt for religion and his jovial pursuit to show it for what it truly was, the greatest scam the world has ever known.

You see Bob, he did what you have been doing for years. You told people that you are going to fool them and then you fooled them and they paid you for it. I have no shame in being labeled as a "rube" by a agnostic who died without a penny to his name. His many works were great but I wonder why he had no money and Anton LaVey had much. It might have been the content. If you read what I shared in the post above you can see that it is common sense and anyone with half a brain would agree. Atleast it is more plausible than a parting of a sea or raising someone from the dead or any of that garbage in the christian bible.

As for the bible? How many have been sold over the years and the men who made it must also be laughing in their graves as well. They were most likely laughing when they were writing it.

I love your work Bob. It is awesome! All the best.

BTW - why do we consistently use wikipedia as a source. It is not accredited by any colleges of worth. Anyone can write anything on it.

Patrick-

Wikipedia wasn't the source of my comment. I just provided it as a reference for those who knew little about LaVey.I've read all of LaVey's work and enjoyed it as parody and satire. But I just felt that inserting LaVey into this debate is like throwing gasoline on a fire. (But I'm sure LaVey would have liked the idea.)

Re: Wilson - I don't see how someone's wealth at death is a measure of the value of his ideas. And, I note, you haven't disagreed with Wilson's assessment of LaVey as a "send-up artist."

Glad you like my work and appreciate your kind words.

Good thoughts,

Bob

Bob,

you were right. I didn't, he even said that he was. After all he was just a man and men will be men.

Throwing gasoline on a fire - I remember my dad doing that one Christmas, when he let the fire run out and saw my mum coming up the drive. It was an interesting afternoon. Kids love fire trucks!