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magicman29 Inner circle hertfordshire 1245 Posts |
Hi guys,
This question has been on my mind and would love to hear what your opinions are.....stating that I use different techniques to create the illusion of mindreading, do you think to a spectator in other words in their opinion I'm stating that I'm just using trickery? I hope this doesn't sound like a stupid question... Kieran |
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Billy-one Inner circle IOWA 1028 Posts |
Magicman,
Yes, I think that's what a lot of people will think and for a good reason. Also, Im not sure this is a problem. respect, Billy |
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kinesis Inner circle Scotland, surrounded by 2708 Posts |
Every member of your audience will interpret what you say differently. So the answer is Yes some will but not all. If it's a good show, few will care.
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Mindpro Eternal Order 10587 Posts |
Why would you say that if you're trying to perceived as the real thing? If your not then don't try to explain it as they'll just think it's your normal arsenal of trickery. Plus by doing so (trying to explain it) you confuse and cloud the issue to audiences for mentalists or mind readers trying to project credibility and believability.
I can't see any benefits to doing so. |
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Axel Elite user Berlin 451 Posts |
Stating that you create the illusion of mindreading does not, in my opinion, necessarily devaluate what your doing.
After all it's a common approach used by a lot of the psychological-suggestive-faction. You put what you're doing in the tradition of conjuring and pure slight-of-hand-magic if that's the only thing that's on you're mind while performing. What are the techniques you actually use, if it's not mindreading? How do you get to know the name for example? If you're only answer to that is: "Because I did a p**k" you'll telegraph this attitude to your audience and they will take it as an amusing trick. So what other methods are there (hypothetically) to get to know things you couldn't know? If it's not mindreading... Best, Lexa |
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mastermindreader 1949 - 2017 Seattle, WA 12586 Posts |
If you state that you are using "techniques" to create an "illusion," you are, essentially, stating that you are an illusionist, i.e., a magician, and, therefore, you are doing "tricks."
Good thoughts, Bob |
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WDavis Inner circle 1276 Posts |
Kieran,
It will depend on your environment. As kinesis stated earlier people here what they want to here, but don't forget the environment can influence their perceptions. Are you performing for entertainment only? on stage, walk around, or in the home? If it is for entertainment and you are hired for the occasion, I remind you of the position of the late Dick Christian that your disclaimer is the fact you are a hired entertainer. In other words, people don't pay to see the fake mind reader, so why tell them. It is my opinion the justification clauses used stem from an internal conflict of what the performer is doing/saying verse what they believe. If the performer doesn't feel comfortable doing Mentalism and needs to use an excuse when performing then maybe Mentalism isn't for this particular performer. This point Has Nothing against the performers ability to perform Mentalism well, just that the performer needs to examine WHY saying a disclaimer/justification is important to them. If it is because they don't feel comfortable deceiving with Mentalism but are ok when deceiving with magic then maybe Mentalism isn't for the performer. That doesn't mean they can't put mentalistic style effects into their work. just frame the effects as mental magic. Doing so the performer is able to reconcile his internal conflict and be a better performer. |
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Dr Spektor Eternal Order Carcanis 10781 Posts |
"I am using the Dark Arts of Magick to convince you I am actually using psionic powers of the mind. It seems you humans are more accepting of pseudoscience to deal with the unknown and horrific potentialities that will be displayed tonight than admitting the supernatural world of occult forces that invisibly surrounds you all the time whereever you go. So, I am saying I am a mentalist to soothe you - please accept that deception unless you really want to have your fundamental beliefs shaken to the core. I am sure it is more comforting to think I am manipulating your serotonin via psychokinetic telepsi beams emitting from my amygdala than to know its a spirit of the netherworld crawling around in your soul."
Nah. Just say you are a psychic entertainer and move into the action methinks.
"They are lean and athirst!!!!"
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Ian Rowland Special user London 889 Posts |
Whenever you perform, assuming you do it reasonably well, some people will think you have paranormal abilities, some people will think it's just a bunch of tricks and some people won't care either way - they just want to be entertained. This is always the case. Nothing you say, claim or disclaim will make one jot of difference.
www.ianrowland.com . Working Magic.
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mastermindreader 1949 - 2017 Seattle, WA 12586 Posts |
I tend to agree with Ian, except for one thing- if you claim to be doing tricks or illusions, most of them will believe you, particularly those who might have just wondered if it was real or not if you had said nothing at all.
Good thoughts, Bob |
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bobser Inner circle 4178 Posts |
The answer is of course yes. However, someone, somewhere will think you're lying.
Indeed I normally say: "I have no more talents than anyone else in this room. Only well honed skills in the shape of understanding Body Language, NLP, Advanced Persuasion Techniques and a whole smattering of Workable Psychology, which anyone could learn in a decade... or even less. However, I could, of course, be lying. But hey, let's have some fun, can we do that?" And it's at that point that I produce a rubber chicken, from behind a dishcloth, that totally blows them away! The above, whilst being delivered very loosely is the only 'totally scripted' part of my show. But it's important that it's delivered properly. I call it Breaking Down the Wall. If said precisely and with a tad of humour even the hecklers fall on your side. And do remember the chicken, as a tribute to me perhaps?
Bob Burns is the creator of The Swan.
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john-pears New user 81 Posts |
Quote:
On 2011-11-24 17:28, mastermindreader wrote: Marvellous thought , you are an amazing contribution to this forum Mr. Cassidy. I am not a professional, but whenever I perform, I do it for real. If they want to see "illusions" or "tricks", I invite him to see a magician. |
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Rocketeer Special user Westchester, NY 965 Posts |
I don't know how to link to a specific post so I'm going copying a post I entered on Inner Thoughts in reply to a young man who just put his first video on YouTube. If this gets yanked for double posting (something you wouldn't know if it IS yanked) go to the thread Unconscious Perception in Inner Thoughts. The guy's video is here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5tTs8epol2U .
My comments: It's fashionable these days to proclaim that what you do is due to stuff like "magic trickery and psychological techniques." I agree with Bob Cassidy that such disclaimers are ruining our art. If you don't want to claim you have special powers that's fine. But remember the old magic axiom, "Don't run when you're not being chased." Just do what you do and let each person come to his or her own conclusion about the nature of what they have witnessed. Why do you choose to publicly declare yourself a mere trickster? What does this accomplish? Really, I'd like to know what you were thinking. As a trickster, your miss on the second subject can rightfully interpreted as an example of your incompetence. Think about it. If you do the Ambitious Card and the card doesn't come to the top, you screwed up. But everyone knows that mentalism doesn't always work by its very nature. A miss in understandable, forgivable and even to be expected occasionally. Staying away from "trickery and psychology" statements is like wearing body armor. It doesn't guarantee you won't get killed but it makes it far less likely. The video is a credible effort and for that I congratulate you. But please don't sell yourself short by declaring ahead of time you're just playing tricks. Especially when you know that your success rate with a given effect won't be 100 percent. Best wishes, Rocky
I'm selling my hardcover autographed limited edition copy of Jerome Finley's "Thought Veil"
PM me for info. |
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Ian Rowland Special user London 889 Posts |
Quote:
I tend to agree with Ian, except for one thing- if you claim to be doing tricks or illusions, most of them will believe you This is interesting. While I'm happy to defer to Bob's assessment, my own experience has been different. (I guess that's one of the delights of having a forum such as this: we can share different opinions and experiences.) In my younger days I was inclined to emphasise that what I was doing was not psychic or paranormal in nature at all, and that I was simply presenting tricks and illusions albeit of a rather unusual kind. I found that no matter how clearly and emphatically I did this, I would have people come up to me after a show and say things like, 'How long have you had these abilities...' or 'It was wonderful to see this demonstration of your psychic gifts...'. Two points. I'm not offering this observation to suggest I was such a brilliant mentalist that my routines were ultra-convincing. I'm referring to a time in my life when I was performing pretty standard mentalism fare in a pretty standard way, no more or less competently than dozens of others. Nor was I performing to especially gullible types. I've had comments like this from a very wide range of people, including some who were by any standards well-educated (e.g. a bunch of top science lecturers and researchers at UCLA). It is experiences like these that led me, over many years, to the opinion I expressed earlier in this thread: no matter what you say, you'll always get 'real', 'trick' and 'don't care' verdicts. I suppose one way to reconcile my view with that of the very wise and insightful Mr. Cassidy is to recognise that 'mentalism' is a very broad term. Some mentalism looks very naturalistic, some doesn't. The more naturalistic it looks, the more it can and will fuel the desire some people have to perceive 'real' psychic powers. All that having been said, you can do the most 'magic prop from a magic shop'-type mentalism, with the most 'just for laughs'-type patter, and I guarantee at least one person in the room will think you're demonstrating psychic gifts. C'est la vie. What I've always said about disclaimers is that you may want to offer one for all sorts of reasons: to salve your own conscience, to want to be honest, to appease the skeptical community, to insulate yourself from charges of fraud or misrepresentation and so on and so forth. Just don't think that it makes any difference to what people conclude about your show. It doesn't.
www.ianrowland.com . Working Magic.
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mastermindreader 1949 - 2017 Seattle, WA 12586 Posts |
We are in agreement here, Ian. There are SOME people who will think it is real no matter what you say. I was referring to that middle ground of people who, if not told it was a trick, would have been uncertain if it was real or not. Successfully creating that uncertainty (within the minds of neutral observers) is, to me, one of the hallmarks of classic mentalism.
That said, I am neither wise nor particularly insightful. Just opinionated. :eek: Appreciate the compliment, though. Good thoughts, Bob |
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Simon (Ted) Edwards Inner circle London 1528 Posts |
Quote:
On 2011-11-25 04:56, Ian Rowland wrote: I have experienced exactly the same thing. Also, "I know how you really did that - body language!" And so on. T. |
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Looch Inner circle Off by 3362 Posts |
Years ago, when I was using the "If I influence you to think of something, without you being aware of it...then tell you what that something is...to you, it appears as mind reading, for me Im creating the illusion of mind reading through influence (www.youtube.com/watch?v=qteK8KPILr4)
I used to use this line alot, until one evening at a Christmas party I was booked for, I delivered that line to a lady who looked at me in a disappointed way and said "don't tell me that...let me believe its real" Ive never used it since.
Mentalism Products: https://www.readmymind.co.uk/ Learn Mentalism with the Pro's: https://www.mymind.rocks
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Brandon Queen Special user Los Angeles, California 527 Posts |
Wow that's fantastic Looch! Your experience makes such a valid point on so many levels. Skill vs Supernatural. What's actually more impressive, entertaining, and thought provoking? I think most of us who truly get "it", know the answer to that question.
It occured to me at once that love could be a great illusion, that makes fools of brilliant thinkers everyday
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timski523 Loyal user Bristol, England 226 Posts |
I don't want to hijack your good question Kieron, but I sometimes wonder the same if you start to effect peoples emotions, should you play around with there heads when emotions are involved?
IE on Wednesday night I did the best preformance of a simple (doc hillford )dead or alive effect. I did all the right things, I asked has anyone got any one no longer with us, but allways leaves them good thought? I stressed Please only take part if you are happy about talking about them etc It went very well, the young lady freely choose the card( freely ...ha ha) with her grans name on it. I finished by bringing it all to a happy place and how someone who was close to us is allways there in our hearts etc. Anyway, it was perfect, the young lady was so happy after and atcually thanked me for making her think of those happy memories again.... BUT, heres the thing.... she then asked this exact words " its real isn't it?" Well that put me on the spot, yep reading someones minds and saying its real or doing a reading ect is one thing but this subject matter is a bit different? I was not sure what to say in fact I sorta mumbled out of it with out giving her an answer. On one hand ......yes it is...well I am giving her some sort of false impression that she really conected with her gran on the other........No its a trick...doesnt that just leave her crashing to the ground with a big dissapointment? To you guys who have been in the feild a VERY long time...please let me know your thoughts? I really want to know how I should handle that next time, Ive done it plenty of time before but never that good!! And kieron sorry I just did not want to start another post caause my questions sort of like yours!! thanks Tim |
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Rebecca_Harris Veteran user 361 Posts |
I always wonder why people feel that they have to have an explaination for what they do. Yes it's very important in my opinion to have a clear idea of the ability that you're demonstrating, be it psychology, second sight or what ever and to base your presentation around that ability but I do wonder if there's any need to explain that ability to the audience. I find it much nicer to leave them wondering, let them come to their own conclusions.
Mentalism at The Enchanter's Emporium
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