Showing card techniques and exposing card moves has NOTHING to do with being a professional cheat and good cheats don’t do it. Period.

I would … suggest that you have not been exposed to or are not conversant to the type people I am referring to.

The hustlers that I have known, and the really good ones, DO NOT DEMONSTRATE what they do - ever. ... These type people have spent much of their life suppressing this self-defeating idiotic boasting and showing off.

On 2012-01-25 15:50, Unknown419 wrote:
Cagliostro is speaking from a different perspective that he thinks applies to all avenues of the hustling field when it doesn't. If your field of study is the casino then listen to him and learn, if it's the streets or the clubs then you might want to listen to someone else here on this thread.

Remember in Cagliostro's era and most of mine as well, there was no YouTube and this is how the hustlers kept the sleepers (those who didn't know) sleep.

Tommy have a whole lot of wisdom of which at many a times have shut me up, made me listen and put me in my place and I very much respect him for that because no one has all the sense (answers).

…direct your cheating abilities and techniques to the particular game that you're trying to beat; whatever it is.

This is why to answer the original question of this thread "which is the best cheating move?" has no one right answer. The best cheating move is the move that you need to do in order to get the money for the particular game you're playing or the particular environment that you're playing in.

So what you're telling this forum on the down-low is that Tony Giorgio wasn't a professional nor was he a good cheat. Because he clearly stated in his video that he tipped some of his hand mucking moves to Dai Vernon of which Dai Vernon never mentioned who taught him in his videos.

Not only did good cheats DEMONSTRATE techniques, they (Erdnase) tipped a whole *** book.

Scarne is a tipper....one of my cheating teachers told me that all the hustler's in the service didn't care for him because he was a coat-puller (tattle-tale/snitcher). The white old timers told me the same thing.

If you're right and they didn't tip techniques like you said, you've just call our famous Professor Dai Vernon a straight out liar because he said that Dad Steven's demonstrated his technique to him, so did Al Kennedy, so did Walter Scott and so did others and the list goes on and on and on.

Bottom Line: …You did what you did well, I do what I do well, others do what they do well and so on and so on.

Fact is, you and I live in different worlds.

Tony Giorgio’s DVD entitled, The Ultimate Work purports to demonstrate the “real work” on the subject of hand mucking, as opposed to the magician’s and expose demonstrator’s renditions of same. The designation of “Ultimate Work” might seem a bit pretentious, but what the heck that’s show biz.

I have written favorably about Giorgio’s ability and knowledge in the past and although I don’t know him personally, there is no doubt that he “walked the talk” in his earlier days. His commentary and previous writing on the subject quite definitely convey that fact. The mucks he describes were evidently used by him under fire at some point in his life and more importantly, his philosophy and understanding of the subject goes beyond what most magicians and expose artists usually convey or understand.

The DVD is not meant to be a comprehensive treatise on mucking and there are many “real work” mucks and mucking techniques that are not part of this DVD. The moves Giorgio demonstrates are those that Giorgio evidently developed and used many years ago and in a number of instances have been replaced by more modern and better methods, especially in the area of casino hand mucking. Giorgio’s work in this DVD is almost exclusively aimed at mucking in private games and is really not applicable for casino use. Then again, in all fairness, the best casino mucks for Blackjack and Baccarat, as well as for Texas Hold’em dealt in casino card rooms, have not been exposed by anyone in books or on DVDs – at least not yet. Such techniques and methods are still fairly unknown at this point in time.

What Giorgio does on the DVD is take a standard move (like the machine break off), and then show all the variations of that move that he has developed and used in the past. Additionally, he demonstrates a multitude of ways to palm cards prior to capping the deck. These palming moves for capping the deck are in part, but not entirely, variations of the basic move described by Erdnase under Skinning the Hand in The Expert at the Card Table. His demonstration of actually capping the deck itself, after palming, offers a good lesson for the interested viewer as Giorgio starts with a chip on top of the tabled pack. Placing a chip on the top of the deck is a relatively standard way of “protecting the deck” and Giorgio caps two cards so he can burn the top card before dealing the draw. (Capping the deck applies primarily to the game of Draw Poker and Low Ball Draw Poker in this DVD presentation, but is applicable to other card games as well as different variations of poker.)

Additionally, some of his techniques were designed for poker games and conditions that existed in the past and not for the modern professional full game poker environment of today where the players are sitting arm to arm. His Blackjack muck is more of an oddity (which he admits would never fly under today’s conditions), and his Gin Rummy moves, while interesting and still workable, do not represent the latest methods currently in use. His capping the deck moves are designed more for a shorthanded poker games as the muck techniques demonstrated would tend to “leak” under modern full table conditions. A hustler would definitely have to pick his spots in such instances. (Then again, a hustler always has to pick his spots and gear his moves to the game conditions encountered.)

The philosophy Giorgio conveys is valuable and beneficial to those who have a real interest in the subject, keeping in mind these moves were used a great many years ago. This doesn’t detract from their value and a serious student will definitely benefit from Giorgio’s commentary, demonstrations and perspective. The moves are applicable today in many private games for those who have the desire, audacity and courage to muck under fire.

Giorgio appears to be in his mid 80s and therefore the pace of the two DVDs is rather slow in comparison to the Forte, Piacente and Malek videos/DVDs. However, keep in mind these are teaching and not demonstration DVDs. Giorgio goes over each move 4 or 5 times, and for some this might prove to be tiresome, but it eliminates the necessity of rewinding the DVD over and over again. For serious students looking to master these moves, this is an advantage.

All in all, I recommend this DVD and I think some members of this site will benefit from purchasing and learning from an old timer who really has been there. (An experienced or top notch hand mucker who works under fire, especially a casino mucker, might find the DVD of passing interest, but that’s all. However, many serious viewers, especially magicians, should find the information to be of considerable benefit.

For me, it was a wonderful trip back to a previous era and the world of the old time hustler, and we all benefit by having someone like Giorgio convey this type information while he is still able to do so.

For those who are looking for flashy, whiz bang, razzmatazz BS demo work, this is not the DVD to buy. But for someone who is serious about learning from an old timer who knows what he is talking about, and perhaps picking up a few pointers along the way, I recommend The Ultimate Work.

On 2012-01-26 14:45, AMcD wrote:
@Cagliostro,

Can you make some moves at the table? I mean, have you got a decent bottom deal or can you second deal. Can you stack a set, etc?

On 2012-01-26 19:09, AMcD wrote:
...you always took the time to answer my questions with politeness, accuracy and great style.

On 2012-01-26 18:29, Cagliostro wrote:

Quote:

On 2012-01-26 14:45, AMcD wrote:
@Cagliostro,

Can you make some moves at the table? I mean, have you got a decent bottom deal or can you second deal. Can you stack a set, etc?

I don’t know the reason for your question, but that is all pretty basic stuff. Let me very briefly give you a hint to my progression on this “gambling” type mastery. I am not going to boast nor am I going to tip anything good, but I know some are curious. So take the following for what it is worth, if anything.

When I was 10 – 11 years old, I was an amateur magician and would occasionally go to downtown NY and visit Max Holden’s and Lou Tannen’s Magic shops on 42nd street off Broadway. (I’m from the Bronx originally so it was about a 45 minute subway ride to Manhattan.) One day at Tannen’s, when I was 13 years old, I saw a copy of the Expert at the Card Table on the store’s book shelf and took it home. Once I started to read it that was the end of magic for me. I was enchanted with all the moves in the card cheating section and by 14 years of age, had learned and mastered all the run-ups, bottom deal, holding out, hops, cull shuffles, skinning the hand, etc., in Erdnase because at that time, I thought Erdnase was the be all, end all when it came to gambling moves. Since I was studying classical piano and practicing for 2-3 hours a day on the Steinway, all these gambling moves came very easily. It was actually a piece of cake compared to classical piano. Once I got the bug, I could not stop practicing this stuff, much to the chagrin of my parents who for some strange reason thought learning classical piano was more important that learning how to deal base.

Then I got exposed to some information (which I am not going to get into) at 14 years old, that gave me a very good hint as to how the big money hustlers were making the big money plays, and it was not Erdnase. Now I was really hooked. There were no videos or DVDs in those days, most magicians knew nothing about gambling moves, this all was very hush-hush, so I had to hunt and scrounge to pick up bits and pieces wherever I could locate them over the next several years. Scarne on Cards, Scarne on Dice, How to Control Fair Dice, MacDougall’s Card Mastery, Gamblers Don’t Gamble and Danger in the Cards, Sharps and Flats, Buckley’s Card Control, Expert Card Technique, Eddie McQuire’s Walter Scott manuscript, Merlin’s…and a Pack of Cards and Hugard’s More Card Manipulation Vol. 2 (for the riffle stack and riffle stack double duke), The Sealed Book, The Open Book, Moss’ Card Cheats – How They Operate, all of Vernon’s books, plus the KC Card Company’s catalog. Some of these books were devoted exclusively to gambling and cheating, others just had an occasional move here and there.

I was addicted, became a “move” junky and mastered just about every move you can think of, numerous variations therein and developed quite a few original concepts. By the time I was 17 years old, I was very skillful and extremely accomplished (but not “capable”) with dice and cards. Because of this (and because I was from the Bronx), I thought I was King Kong and I really knew what this was all about. Boy was I wrong. I was just a glorified wise-ass NY half-smart who had mastered a lot of moves, had a lot of knowledge ABOUT cheating and though I was the be all, end all when it came to card and dice hstling. I was in for some serious surprises.

I went into the Marine Corps shortly thereafter so as not to be drafted in the Army, and while stationed at the Marine Corps Air Station, El Toro at Santa Ana, CA, I used to travel to Gardena and sneak into the card rooms there (I was not 21 yet). While playing there I figured out two moves to beat both the Draw poker game and also the Low Ball draw game. One was completely original and I have never had anyone pick up on it or suspect it, nor have anyone ever written about it or exposed it. I subsequently found out the Low Ball move was being used by other hustlers in the big games played by a few of the big name poker names of today.

After being discharged from the Marine Corps at 21 years of age, I moved to Las Vegas and got involved with gambling. I am not going to tell you how it happened, but got duked into some of the top Vegas active professional hustlers. Because I took my Bronx heritage with me, “never tip, never rat out anyone, never expose anything to chumps or half-smarts, never boast about your ability, always play the IG,” I got to learn about things I never dreamed of and which I am not going to go into. That is where I jumped from being proficient to capable.

The way it worked was the good stuff that was currently being used was passed on by direct contact on a need to know basis to those who were active in hustling. Nobody tipped the current gaffs because it was their livelihood and to expose what they were doing to the non-hustlers would be to make the gaff useless and dangerous. On a couple of occasions, people got killed for saying the wrong thing to the wrong people. So regardless what anyone on this board thinks, it is still done that way today with the new, current stuff that is being used. It is not in books or on DVDs and won’t be until it gets played out and the hustlers have gone on to something else.

By the way AMcD, I hope my explanation was not too brief and I answered your question sufficiently.

On 2012-01-27 13:29, Unknown419 wrote:
I still thought that I was great until I went on the road and boy oh boy did I get a rude awakening about how good I really was. I had to re-learn basically every thing all over again, I had to dismiss 99% of every thing that the magicians told and taught us in their books (that's why I started this site so no one will get tricked like I was) and then I had to adjust the moves to the card table.

On 2012-01-31 23:41, tommy wrote:
Now we can assume its an eight handed round game of poker where all the players get to shuffle but if so, what I would ask in the first the place is, what would be the point of dealing seconds at all? Are we to assume the cards in the game in question are marked in the first place? If we are to assume the cards in the game in question are marked then wouldn't that info alone give one enough advantage to get the money without having to resort to second dealing as well?

Moreover I have not seen a eight handed round game of poker where all the players get to shuffle deal in a very long time. Poker in my experience has always been a game where dealers are employed to deal. In my neck of the woods poker has never been a game, it's always been a business. The business of charging players an hourly fee or taking a rake, the business of earning money by dealing by way of tips and so on.

On 2012-02-02 06:54, AMcD wrote:
Cagliostro,

Don't forget tommy is in UK, games are not the same, habits are not the same, etc...
In my games, we have plastic cards, cut cards and 3 people involved for every round (unless there's a permanent dealer, of course). Forget about passes, bottom deal, hops, etc. Collusion, peeking, second deal... Works fine.

You are not a hustler and your experience appears to be somewhat limited. There are many private high stake games today with businessmen and professional people where the players shuffle and deal themselves. These are very big games. I am surprised you are not aware of this and that not everyone plays in card rooms. Some of the best games are not in card rooms. Many high income professional people and business men simply don’t play in card rooms.

On 2012-02-03 19:33, tommy wrote:

Quote:

You are not a hustler and your experience appears to be somewhat limited. There are many private high stake games today with businessmen and professional people where the players shuffle and deal themselves. These are very big games. I am surprised you are not aware of this and that not everyone plays in card rooms. Some of the best games are not in card rooms. Many high income professional people and business men simply don’t play in card rooms.

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.