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The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » Not very magical, still... » » Would you choose stability & security over personal freedom? (0 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

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Payne
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Quote:
On 2011-12-01 06:39, Dannydoyle wrote:

Payne, hardly the point.



Certainly it's the point. One has to define what they mean by "freedom". What it means to an anarchist is totally different than what it means to a conservative, liberal, socialist or libertarion.

It's a word that likes to get bandied about a whole lot. But until one defines exactly what type of "freedom" they are talking about all discussion is pretty much moot.

If one is talking about the freedoms set forth in our constitution then at least one has a framework to work from.
"America's Foremost Satirical Magician" -- Jeff McBride.
Dannydoyle
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I thought since he ws biting at the edges of Franklin that was what he meant.

And yes, "Freedoms just another word for nothing left to lose".
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus
<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
stoneunhinged
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Quote:
On 2011-12-01 11:48, Payne wrote:
But until one defines exactly what type of "freedom" they are talking about all discussion is pretty much moot.


Hm. I suppose you're right. But what I mean is specifically this: freedom means a release from unnatural constraints. Such a release can only be temporary, for we all live under some kind of civil order. Rock and Roll (or for Pakar, Hip Hop) provides such a temporary release. I can't think of anything else that does the same.
randirain
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Quote:
On 2011-12-01 01:36, Payne wrote:
Quote:
On 2011-11-30 23:42, randirain wrote:
Am I missing something?

You people would rather have security than freedom?

You would rather be safe and be told what to do, instead of taking a risk to be able to live how you see fit?

That's crazy!

Surely I am reading this wrong.

Personally, I will take my chances if it means people staying the hell out of my business.


So do you obey traffic laws and pay your taxes? If you do you are already allowing your freedoms to be impinged.


Those would be laws, and as long as they are voted upon by the people, then it is freedom.
At least as much as freedom can actually be.

It's when laws are forced upon us, that's when freedom doesn't exist.
You know.. much like the TSA taking x-ray nude photos of us at the airport.
I don't remember voting on that, yet I have to do it if I want to fly.

Just because there are laws doesn't mean people are not free.
It's all about how those laws came into effect.

But I am still confused about the topic.
I guess I could look back at it and try figure it out, but I really don't care that much.
So I will just move on.

Randi
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Dennis Michael
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Freedom is more than "stability & Security". Freedom is the right to bear arms and overthrow the oppressing government control.

Giving up freedom means giving up self-preservation rights. Most countries that has done this the government killed the protesters, some in the millions and it still is happening today.

One can have personal freedom and stability & security.
Dennis Michael
LobowolfXXX
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La Famiglia
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Quote:
On 2011-12-01 13:08, randirain wrote:
Quote:
On 2011-12-01 01:36, Payne wrote:
Quote:
On 2011-11-30 23:42, randirain wrote:
Am I missing something?

You people would rather have security than freedom?

You would rather be safe and be told what to do, instead of taking a risk to be able to live how you see fit?

That's crazy!

Surely I am reading this wrong.

Personally, I will take my chances if it means people staying the hell out of my business.


So do you obey traffic laws and pay your taxes? If you do you are already allowing your freedoms to be impinged.


Those would be laws, and as long as they are voted upon by the people, then it is freedom.
At least as much as freedom can actually be.

It's when laws are forced upon us, that's when freedom doesn't exist.
You know.. much like the TSA taking x-ray nude photos of us at the airport.
I don't remember voting on that, yet I have to do it if I want to fly.

Just because there are laws doesn't mean people are not free.
It's all about how those laws came into effect.
Randi


I'm pretty sure you didn't vote on the traffic laws or in the income tax, either.

If anything, I'd reverse your examples. If you don't like the airport security rules, you're free to take other transportation and go about your relatively free life; if you stop paying income taxes, you'll probably go to jail (if you choose to keep earning an income, of course).
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
jugglestruck
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Quote:
On 2011-12-01 12:30, stoneunhinged wrote:

Hm. I suppose you're right. But what I mean is specifically this: freedom means a release from unnatural constraints. Such a release can only be temporary, for we all live under some kind of civil order. Rock and Roll (or for Pakar, Hip Hop) provides such a temporary release. I can't think of anything else that does the same.


I can only think of two instances in my life when I have felt genuinely free - when I spent two weeks walking a mountain range and when I took ecstasy Smile
acesover
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As I said early on...it depends on your perception of freedom.

Obeying traffic laws I can see no way that as being an infringement on freedom. What if someone is crossing the street and you have a red light and choose to run them down? Oh heck never mind! I still stand by what I said early on... depends on your perception of freedom.

To answer the question as I think it was posed I would havea to say. I would rather be free as I feel there is no security without freedom.
If I were to agree with you. Then we would both be wrong. As of Apr 5, 2015 10:26 pm I have 880 posts. Used to have over 1,000
Steve_Mollett
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If you want maximum security, go to prison.
Author of: GARROTE ESCAPES
The absurd is the essential concept and the first truth.
- Albert Camus
Bill Hilly
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I keep hearing about living in a free country, but it seems like every time I turn around the government is making me pay just to live here.
acesover
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Quote:
On 2011-12-01 20:38, Bill Hilly wrote:
I keep hearing about living in a free country, but it seems like every time I turn around the government is making me pay just to live here.


I dislike taxes as much as the next guy. But as you say you live in a country...I guess that country has roads, bridges, court houses, police protection, all sorts of laws for your good that need peopole to enforce such as enviormental controls and the list goes on. To be honest I have not even scratched the surface. Unfortunately with all the things that need taking care of we need more people to handle them and with that comes corruption and so it goes. The bigger it gets the more complex it gets.
If I were to agree with you. Then we would both be wrong. As of Apr 5, 2015 10:26 pm I have 880 posts. Used to have over 1,000
ed rhodes
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Quote:
On 2011-11-30 07:49, panlives wrote:
Would you risk the foundations (safe haven, food and shelter) to reach for freedom?


No. If I were going to, I would have done it when I was in NYC and I'd be on Broadway right now... or the Bowery!
"There's no time to lose," I heard her say.
"Catch your dreams before they slip away."
"Dying all the time, lose your dreams and you could lose your mind.
Ain't life unkind?"
critter
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Quote:
On 2011-12-01 19:25, Steve_Mollett wrote:
If you want maximum security, go to prison.


I believe they're referring to the security of the public, not the inmates. Unless you call getting shanked with a sharpened toothbrush and/or hairy flesh-knife secure. Smile
"The fool is one who doesn't know what you have just found out."
~Will Rogers
Steve_Mollett
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Quote:
On 2011-12-08 14:48, critter wrote:
Quote:
On 2011-12-01 19:25, Steve_Mollett wrote:
If you want maximum security, go to prison.


I believe they're referring to the security of the public, not the inmates. Unless you call getting shanked with a sharpened toothbrush and/or hairy flesh-knife secure. Smile


Not to you and I, to be sure, but the late Richard Speck seemed to feel cozy there.
Author of: GARROTE ESCAPES
The absurd is the essential concept and the first truth.
- Albert Camus
stoneunhinged
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Quote:
On 2011-12-01 06:39, Dannydoyle wrote:

"Those who would give up Essential Liberty
to purchase a little Temporary Safety,
deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."

It is often attributed to Franklin (Sometimes even Thomas Jefferson.) but as I recall it is not certain. Not the point though, it fits.


Don't know if he said it first, but the sentence definitely appears in Franklin Roosevelt's Four Freedoms speech on 6 January, 1941.
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