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Philemon Vanderbeck
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It's your karma...

If you really don't want the controversy/publicity, I'll be more than happy to take it off your hands.

I can sell you a crystal for $100 that is guaranteed to erase all previous karma, or double your dharma back.

:evilgrin:
Professor Philemon Vanderbeck
That Creepy Magician
"I use my sixth sense to create the illusion of possessing the other five."
A l a i n B e ll o n
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Philemon, do you offer discounts for wholesale distributors?

-Alain Bellon
Philemon Vanderbeck
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Yes, the usual 66.6%.

:evilgrin:
Professor Philemon Vanderbeck
That Creepy Magician
"I use my sixth sense to create the illusion of possessing the other five."
mysterium
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Indeed, how utterly pathetic this thread has become.

Mentalists who use disclaimers should not be performing mentalism. It's the equivalent of an actor shouting out "This is all just make-believe!" in the midst of a performance. You should WANT people to believe what you do is real. Or at least consider the possibility.

Those who worry about mentalism leading the faithful astray and into the realms of hell should worry more about their own mental health. And if I hear one more hosanna about Jesus and faith I'm gonna start making pronouncements about my religious beliefs... which will undoubtedly make many folks uncomfortable, as the Jesus talk has made me feel. Squeamish.

Mentalism is entertainment. ENTERTAINMENT. Present it as such and no disclaimer is needed.

PK effects are very strong. Duh. If you don't know how to handle a reaction to "real" magic then go back to hippity-hop rabbits.

Seriously, this may sound smug. But if you can't take the reactions, don't do the work. If you can't present yourself as someone with mysterious powers, get another hobby/career.
saglaser
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I'm going to make one post on the religion comparison issue then do my best to shut up unless somebody gives me a really good reason or a whole lot of money not to Smile

It is utterly pointless to compare and contrast our "miracles" with those reported in any religious texts. At base, we know what effects Kreskin, Banachek, Philemon, Geller, Edward or any other performer produced because we have dependable historical proof. We can debate how they were performed, but we know the effects actually happened. Religious miracles are not historically-provable fact so belief as to whether they actually happened at all are matters of faith. There is no basis for definitely factual comparison.

As for the satanism thing, there are at least three totally different religions which go under the name of Satanism. The one which most Christians preach against is a belief in the power of evil and is something quite nasty. It is also quite rare.

The one which gets the most press is the Anton LeVey school which denies any supernatural being, God or Devil, and celebrates the animal nature of man. It is nature-based with the trappings of Hollywood.

The third is the belief that there is indeed a good diety and an evil one, and that the God of the Bible is the evil one, which is why the Biblical religions have led to so many wars attrocities and hatreds. It teaches that the enemy of that diety, which the Bible refers to as Satan, is actually the force of good working for universal love and harmony.

Actually, I seem to recall from my days gathering a degree in Religious Studies that there was a fourth religion referred to as Satanism, but if so, I've long forgotten what it was.

Now, I'd sorta prefer to keep the conversation focused on entertainment-oriented miracles and leave the rest for religion-oriented discussion areas. So I think that's the path I'll try to follow from this point on.

Steve
fordkross
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Quote:
On 2002-05-31 19:37, saglaser wrote:
I'm going to make one post on the religion comparison issue then do my best to shut up unless somebody gives me a really good reason or a whole lot of money not to Smile

It is utterly pointless to compare and contrast our "miracles" with those reported in any religious texts. At base, we know what effects Kreskin, Banachek, Philemon, Geller, Edward or any other performer produced because we have dependable historical proof. We can debate how they were performed, but we know the effects actually happened. Religious miracles are not historically-provable fact so belief as to whether they actually happened at all are matters of faith. There is no basis for definitely factual comparison.

As for the satanism thing, there are at least three totally different religions which go under the name of Satanism. The one which most Christians preach against is a belief in the power of evil and is something quite nasty. It is also quite rare.

The one which gets the most press is the Anton LeVey school which denies any supernatural being, God or Devil, and celebrates the animal nature of man. It is nature-based with the trappings of Hollywood.

The third is the belief that there is indeed a good diety and an evil one, and that the God of the Bible is the evil one, which is why the Biblical religions have led to so many wars attrocities and hatreds. It teaches that the enemy of that diety, which the Bible refers to as Satan, is actually the force of good working for universal love and harmony.

Actually, I seem to recall from my days gathering a degree in Religious Studies that there was a fourth religion referred to as Satanism, but if so, I've long forgotten what it was.

Now, I'd sorta prefer to keep the conversation focused on entertainment-oriented miracles and leave the rest for religion-oriented discussion areas. So I think that's the path I'll try to follow from this point on.

Steve


I agree this is not a comparative religion list. References to religion, no matter how well intentioned are way off topic
Shem Hem Forash Smile
from
Ford
Alexander
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I must say that I find this a very amusing thread indeed. Lots of nonsense spoken in a very intellectual manner.
I won't say who I think was talking nonsense. Let us just say it was more than one person.
I do believe we take all this mentalism nonsense too seriously. I remember Graham Jolley a talented British mentalist once being asked at a lecture years and years ago what his claims or disclaimers were. Graham looked baffled and endeared himself to me by saying simply "I have no idea. I just do the act"
I personally doubt that anyone believes that what a mentalist does is real. They will believe a psychic or a tarot reader. They will not believe that some chap on a stage pretending psychic powers really has them.
Sure, there will be a contingent of people who are gullible enough to believe the tosh put forward. In fact, I think a lot of mentalists try and con THEMSELVES that what they do is real. Still, I do not believe any more than 10% of intelligent people really believe the guy has powers.
I know lots of mentalists kid themselves that the audience is in great awe of them and really believe in the tosh presented.
If you are across a table doing a reading they may well believe you. If you are performing on a stage then I can assure you that most people are not daft enough to believe you are real.
If they do believe you are real they probably require psychiatric counselling.
Don't get me wrong. A good mentalist can make 80% of the audience SUSPEND THEIR DISBELIEF. However, the disbelief is still there.If it isn't then you have some very gullible people.
I can assure you that in their heart of hearts people know you are doing a trick. I agree that this scepticism varies. I think 10per cent of people are outright believers. 20per cent are outright skeptics. The other 80percent of people have SOME BELIEF that what you do is real. However SOME belief is not COMPLETE belief.
Let us face it. If 80% of that audience REALLY believes you are real then you are performing for a bunch of lunatics.Or very gullible people at the very least.
I can assure you that I am very well in touch with the psychic world. I know how the believers think. You can OFFEND people by trying to convince them you are real. They consider it an insult to their intelligence.
I know that shut eye people are the hardest to fool with tricks. They don't know how it is done but they KNOW it is a trick a lot faster than supposedly more sceptical people.

I still remember a very well known psychic couple trying to fool some shut eye people with some stuff from their two person act.
These spectators were quite insulted that these people were doing it as a supposed "Real" test. They said to me "It was obviously a trick. We appreciate a good magic trick but we get annoyed when people like that try and present it as real psychic phenomena."

You are there for one reason only. To Entertain. Nothing else. You are not there to start a religion or make people believe you are real. If they are daft enough to believe you have psychic powers that is their problem. It really is none of your business to convince them one way or another.
Just go in, get paid and get out. You have then done your job. Keep the thing light hearted or be dramatic if that is your style.Act the part but don't take the thing so bloody seriously. You are in showbusiness, that's all.
You should also bear in mind that bookers can be nervous when you say you do "Psyhic entertainment" They don't want to book you.
I have sometimes been forced to tell them it is a bunch of baloney. I am quite happy to do this, too.
This is a mentalism thread, not a religion one. You are there to amaze people or to make them laugh not to set up as a demi God.
Don't take yourselves so seriously. That is the advice I would give people here. After all, you are in the ENTERTAINMENT business.
So,entertain!
Philemon Vanderbeck
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Quote:
On 2002-06-04 21:08, Alexander wrote:
I think 10per cent of people are outright believers. 20per cent are outright skeptics. The other 80percent of people have SOME BELIEF that what you do is real.


Giving us 110%, eh?

:evilgrin:
Professor Philemon Vanderbeck
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A l a i n B e ll o n
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I would put my percentages as follows:

10-20% hard skeptics
80-90% People that may be convinced if given the right "evidence".

If I were to break up that 80-90% I would say that 20% are hard believers and 60-70% believe in some way or another—they contemplate the possibility of something "paranormal" existing.

When a person follows a religious system, that person believes in some form of the supernatural. Which is a respectable belief and not different from any other.

Therefore, if a person believes in a deity (or deities) with all its supernatural attributes, the soul, miracles, etc., this person will be prone to accept a paranormal occurance since it would not be against his/her current belief system.

It all boils down to accomodating our experiences into our belief system or model of the world. Our model will certainly shift but it is not likely to do it abruptly.

-Alain Bellon
Alexander
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Sorry. I never could add up. Make it 70% then.
CENDRE
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Aaaa...
I agree with you Alexander ! Sometimes, when I read such a thread I doubt of our fellow magician.

People aren't gullible and we have to do our best do do good magic, because we don't have to fear their reactions : they will be confused the time of the show... and after : The magic slowly disappear in front of the real life.

Of course, we will meet people more gullible than the others, people who want to believe. But they only are a few, and it's easy to explain for them we only do a show.

And I also agree with you Alexander when you say that a lot of magician try, first, to kid and con themselves.

I have 2 explanations :
* They need to believe (much more than the spectator) and they try to fool themselves. Something like : "that's not true magic (if only...) but nevertheless these skills are a bit dangerous and powerfull . Moreover only a few people are aware of this skills !".

* They are really afraid of "true magic" and they think that spectators can believe we have true power... Be reassured, they don't Smile
Il était une fois...

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Darmoe
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Quote:
On 2002-05-05 18:09, brownbomber wrote:
I recently tried out what I've been learning from Banachek's PK Silverware video on a very good friend of mine who's now pretty used to my 'mentalism'. Nothing however, could have prepared me for her totally shocked reaction! I've never seen anything like it, for most of the rest of the day she was totally stunned and obviously had a hard time reconciling what she'd seen with its obvious impossibility.

My question to other spoonbenders out there is how to explain one's 'powers' in a situation like that without going down the rather unethical 'psychic' route? With most mentalism nowadays there are lots of pyschological explanations that are reasonably plausible to explain away magick - but I'm finding this one tricky to resolve.

bb Smile


Smile Not that I'd ever play devil's advocate... but "Why Not?"

As Lee Earle has pointed out numerous times NO ONE WANTS TO HIRE A FAKE MIND READER... if you STUDY the tomes of this trade, including the careers of those most successful in straight "Mentalism" the "disclaimer" is carefully worded as are their reactions to questions... they neither admit nor deny Psychic Prowess.

I loathe this current trend of commercializing and exploiting excellent mental magic material, like most every Banachek has put out (along with Knepper, etc.) only to belittle it (and thus ruin it for the "real" psychic entertainers) by calling it an "ILLUSION" or worse A Freak'n TRICK!

I do my best to present "Honest" material when I do any of my work. When it comes to PK type situations I will typically refer to a legitimate physical condition that many have and I just happen to share -- a peculiarity that involves the bio-electrical-magnetic fields of the body that prevents some people from wearing watches, certain kinds of jewelry, etc. In short, they tend to magnitize and even degrade metals... this is factual science (though rare and hard to find info on.)

To make a long story short I use this "seed of thought" and proceed by borrowing a watch... I do Bavli's "Time Stop" followed by my own variations on PK Time then, depending on the situation, move into other PK based demonstrations.

The logic behind what I do is simple as well as cruel... by using legit information and even giving reference notes as to where to find said data, I gain reputability in the eyes of the paying public.

The most important illusion any mentalist/ psychic entertainer or Bizarrest can create, is the one we place around ourselves as performers. The more you can take from legit sources in creating such a foundation, the greater power you'll have in the public's mind, within your character.

Just some food for thought...
"I firmly believe that of all the Arts and Crafts of Mentalism, there is nothing more satisfying than one who is a first-class Reader. It is the ultimate in Mentalism..." - Tony Corinda * 13 Steps To Mentalism
fordkross
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There is no market for a fake psychic is a quote from The great Terwilliger. An ancestor of John Riggs and quoted in many pf his books. That is a direct quote from one of John's books. Earle, surely forgot to give the source
from
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But I think there is market for a true comedian... someone people want to see for the show, because they want to be somethong different, the paranormal in "true" conditions. A fantastic movie turned into reality.
I believe (maybe one day I will change my mind) that it's enought for the spectator. We give him our best, we don't have to make him believe we know the true psychic in real life (I mean after the show).
Il était une fois...

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Geoff Weber
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My 2 cents on the lying about your powers: I was at a party a couple years ago... and I did a self levitation illusion for this girl, who believed 100% that I had legitimate levitation powers... when she asked how I learned how to do it, I didn't say, "from a magic shop..." I said I learned when I was traveling through India. Its a lie, but it makes the difference between presenting a stupid little optical illusion, or a profound life experiece... As long as I was trying to profit off of her, I see no harm.
Geoff Weber
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(NOT) trying to profit off of her
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