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BenjaminMan New user 94 Posts |
I think that when performing even mental magic,
that there does need to be some way to get the audience to see it as different, (and obviously it is quite different if I can tell when I'm seeing a mental effect.) I mean, obviously sleights can factor into it, but I don't think the audience should know this. This is actually how much of magic works, the audience knowing there is a method, but being driven away from getting close to what the method is. If mentalism is trying to convince an audience that the reading of thoughts may ACTUALLY be real, then it seems quite obvious the difference between mental magic and mentalism, but if this is the only difference, you shouldn't have to worry about magicians performing mentalism. Perhaps you don't like it when magicians, or "magicians", go back and forth, one second insisting they are doing a trick, the next saying they CAN actually pick up on a persons thought. But would you mind if the magician performed a mental effect, such as guessing a thought from a persons mind and writing it down as a prediction, as long as he claimed it was done by deceptive means? Because if mentalism is just trying to convince the audience you ACTUALLY are reading thoughts, then would he really even be performing mentalism? If your problem is with some magicians performing mentalism, then wouldn't your problem just be with when magicians claim to ACTUALLY be doing it half-way through a magic performance? Is this the only different between mentalism and mental magic? Or is your problem that some magicians perform what you consider a mentalism effect as if it was mental-magic? |
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IAIN Eternal Order england 18807 Posts |
Quote:
On 2011-12-06 18:07, Godzilla wrote: what if I tried, and because its not a human being picking the numbers - I could show you what happens when I do try? (and believe me, I do try to win the lottery)...
I've asked to be banned
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mastermindreader 1949 - 2017 Seattle, WA 12586 Posts |
Exactly, Iain. My usual answer is that I can't influence the mind of a ping pong ball.
Bob |
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edh Inner circle 4698 Posts |
I've read a quote but can't remember where. It went something like this: Mentalism is magic for adults.
That makes sense to me.
Magic is a vanishing art.
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Godzilla Inner circle Tied & Untied Witches on 5316 Posts |
Quote:
On 2011-12-06 19:46, IAIN wrote: LOL Good point Iain ! That is why I went 'MAGICK'...plus it is much harder to say MAGICKIAN,than Magician !
"If you watch Godzilla backwards, it's about a big ass lizard who helps rebuild a half burnt-down city, then moonwalks back into the ocean"
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Decomposed Eternal Order High Desert 12059 Posts |
Quote:
On 2011-12-06 20:20, edh wrote: Well, I think the more you inform them its entertainment, some will conclude it is magic/trickery. OT: Readers never have a problem with being called magicians. Everything is spoken and no props to speak of. Perhaps that is why being booked as a mindreader eliminates trickery in the laymen minds. Do not know the exact quote but every time you introduce a prop into your act you...................... AFter midnight, that's enough. D
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mastermindreader 1949 - 2017 Seattle, WA 12586 Posts |
The quote about mentalism being sophisticated entertainment for adult audiences is from Annemann. "Every time you add a prop to your act, your price goes down," is often attributed to Dunninger.
I agree with both of them. Good thoughts, Bob |
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JanForster Inner circle Germany ... when not traveling... 4190 Posts |
Quote:
On 2011-12-06 20:20, edh wrote: And of course Dunninger war right too. The funny thing is that in my experience the statement mentalism is magic for adults shouldn't concern only the audience. It says also something about the performer. Don't get me wrong I started as a magician and learned a lot, but the older I get less interested I am in magic. I still like (I can't say love) to see good magic if there is (seldom enough), but basically I find magic quite boring. Jan
Jan Forster
www.janforster.de |
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MichaelCGM Inner circle Oklahoma City 2286 Posts |
Quote: On this I agree completely, David. Adding mentalism to a "pile" of magic buries the concept. But, your response wasn't in regard to a "pile of magic." It was in response to doing magic and mentalism together.
On 2011-12-06 09:21, David Thiel wrote: A mentalism routine presented in and among a pile of magic effects is still seen as a trick because it's nestled among tons of tricks. Quote: Are you waffling, David? Of course Richard is his own "brand." So is Banachek. So is Maven. The question is: Is Osterlind a "mentalist?"
Osterlind is Osterlind...he's become his own "brand" and can do whatever he pleases and still be Osterlind. In my mentalism act, I perform straight mentalism. Depending on the client, I may include two magic effects - one at the beginning and one at the end. The first to explain the difference between magic and mentalism, the last to show how thought processes and mental control help make magic possible. (An over-simplified picture of how and why I might blend the two.) So, am I not a mentalist OR have I become my own "brand?" Quote: Two quick questions: Who determines when a performer understands these fundamental differences? How do you define "indiscriminately?"On 2011-12-06 11:29, mastermindreader wrote: In my view, performers who don't understand the fundamental differences between magic and mentalism, and who illustrate that misunderstanding by mixing the two indiscriminately in their acts and promotional materials, diminish the art when they bill themselves as mentalists. They are not. |
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mastermindreader 1949 - 2017 Seattle, WA 12586 Posts |
Quote:
On 2011-12-07 02:51, MichaelCGM wrote: Apart from in my books, where I have discussed the fundamental differences between magic and mentalism in depth, a summary of my views can be found in the following thread: http://www.themagiccafe.com/forums/viewt......m=304&14 Whether or not a performer understands those differences can usually be determined by the reactions his or her performances typically receive from audiences of laypeople. As to my definition of "indiscriminate" - I am using the commonly understood definition of the word: random, haphazard, without distinction, without thought or care, etc. |
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Dr Spektor Eternal Order Carcanis 10781 Posts |
A mentalist also is someone who will not suffer from magician's guilt
That actually is quite hard and a true mastery of the mystery arts does require this IMHO
"They are lean and athirst!!!!"
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cirrus Inner circle his minions made 1751 Posts |
Isn't bizarre magic a blend of the two or am I wrong seeing this?
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dusty Veteran user 352 Posts |
As an entertainment agent based in the UK, I get lots of publicity sent to me by aspiring performers. The trend now seems to be to advertise yourself as a magician/mentalist. Now I don't know if this is simply to try and capture the client who thinks this is what "Derren Brown" does as in the UK Derren tends to be flavour of the month. These guys don't realise that the title implies mental magic "tricks". They are the ones who are watering down the genre of mentalism in the mind of the audience/client.
Having stated the problem, let me offer my solution, for me at least. I reside here as Dusty, a magician of reasonable talents. IBM close-up winner, magic castle performer etc. But I also write, create and perform as "Max Gordon" my mentalism show is sponsored by the worlds most popular whisky distillers and as been booked by many blue chip companies such as Pfizer, Microsoft etc. who have no idea that I do magic. Why should they? They booked a mentalist, not a magician. What do I do if a client asks for close-up during dinner followed by a mentalism cabaret? I book a colleague to do close-up, yes even though it means I sacrifice a bigger fee. (that's impressive from a Scotsman, believe me!) I have two different business cards and offer which ever is appropriate. On another isssue, I do not offer to sell my products on my website. I don't want viewers to assume anyone can "buy" my skills. I know some offer a secure login to a "products" but this for me still hints that your methods can be bought.
Regards,
Dusty aka Max Gordon. "Always give 100%, Unless you're a blood donor!" Exclusive publications available from: www.solutions.yolasite.com |
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David Thiel Inner circle Western Canada...where all that oil is 4005 Posts |
Yes. Osterlind is a mentalist. No question.
I concede your point...which seems to be: "Since Richard Osterlind is a mentalist and Richard Osterlind combines both magic and mentalism in the same show, it is proof that a mentalist can do magic and still be called a mentalist." I stand corrected. I guess. :) David
Whatever doesn't kill you makes you stronger. Except bears. Bears will kill you.
My books are here: www.magicpendulums.com www.MidnightMagicAndMentalism.com |
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OldNick Regular user Dresden/Germany 111 Posts |
Dusty, I am with you with your opinion. But...
Quote:
On 2011-12-07 08:44, dusty wrote: Because you offer both magic AND mentalism on the same website? Do you suppose your clients don´t look at your page? Your website is (in my opinion, of course) a contradiction to what you wrote above. Did I miss something? Nico |
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Decomposed Eternal Order High Desert 12059 Posts |
Quote:
On 2011-12-07 01:54, mastermindreader wrote: Five cups of now I remember.
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MichaelCGM Inner circle Oklahoma City 2286 Posts |
Quote: Thanks, David... but I wasn't really trying to correct you. I usually agree with you. I just wanted to make you think. On 2011-12-07 09:14, David Thiel wrote: Yes. Osterlind is a mentalist. No question. I concede your point...which seems to be: "Since Richard Osterlind is a mentalist and Richard Osterlind combines both magic and mentalism in the same show, it is proof that a mentalist can do magic and still be called a mentalist." I stand corrected. I guess. |
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IAIN Eternal Order england 18807 Posts |
Just wanted to add, that last night - at a small birthday bash (i had an hour's notice), I was using very simple techniques and a single deck of cards...i was mainly giving readings via cartomancy and my own stuff...and to finish for the people there, a group version of OOTW...and then giving more readings outside...
firstly, in a light rain, down a london backstreet, and a lampost casting down a beautiful amber carpet, with the raindrops making miniature mushrooms as they bounced and darted - just past 11pm, you would have seen that 43 year old man whose birthday it was, hug me with a few tears in his eyes... not because of the raw onions I keep up my sleeves NO! but because I gave him a ten minute reading outside as he smoked...just him and me, nothing else... and he admitted to something that he'd been carrying emotionally...out it came because of the reading and what we both shared... he contacted me today to say he has now taken some positive steps and is speaking to someone soon to help him deal with (upon my recommendation and via the process of the reading)... he also said that people were asking after me, who I was, how I can do what I do...and even though there was a deck of cards out all night...no one asked to see a trick, nor describe me as a magician, nor did they say "he was a bit derrenish wasn't he"...the birthday boy has also framed the cards in some kind of interesting arrangement in a frame apparently... the point to my waffling is, though I was using certain techniques from magic at times, I was also using mentalism ones too, and held true to (in my mind) what mentalism should look like, as well as the all important character/framework... I do genuinely give a s**t about people, and though I do have my quiet introspective phases - I enjoy a hibernation, but when I'm there with people I want them to feel like I am interested in them...i've said it before, be interesting - but also be interested...that is vital... magic can be a terrible show and tell affair, just like mentalism can be dry and aeolistic... I may not be the most talented, gifted or handsome of mentalists...but, I can interact and listen with others pretty well...we always have fun together...even if its also serious or intimate or anything else inbetween...
I've asked to be banned
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MichaelCGM Inner circle Oklahoma City 2286 Posts |
Quote:
On 2011-12-07 09:33, OldNick wrote: Because you offer both magic AND mentalism on the same website? Do you suppose your clients don´t look at your page? Your website is (in my opinion, of course) a contradiction to what you wrote above. Did I miss something? Great point, Nico. Dusty, speaking as "Max Gordon" says in his mentalism section (on his site, titled "Magical Solutions"), "Who knows if the effects you witness are actual demonstrations or trickery…" I could say a few things about that, but I won't. You see, when members of a certain branch of entertainment start dismissing performers in the same field because those performers don't do things like certain members insist they must be done, it opens a whole 'nother can of worms. In reality, dogma doesn't make a mentalist… the audience does. Dusty further states, "On another isssue, I do not offer to sell my products on my website. I don't want viewers to assume anyone can "buy" my skills." One could make the same argument about magicians selling tricks or selling beginner flyers that teach a few tricks at the BOR. The problem with this is that - to me - skill can't be bought. One can argue for or against anything a fellow performer does. It only causes friction between performers. The audience doesn't see it like we do. Another aspect is credibility. Many people and clients know my magical background. If I try to ignore it or hide it when I'm performing mentalism, they can sense foul play. So, I embrace it. That doesn't mean that I use magic in every performance… just that I make no effort to conceal my love for magic. In fact, I successfully lead the audience down the garden path by alluding to my background while telling them how those studies led me to study the very real powers of the human mind - then make them believe that what I'm doing is real. But, in the end, it doesn't matter if a performer mixes the two. What the audience believes is all that matters - the murmurs of, "That's scary," or "He really knew that!". Even the self-proclaimed mentalists - who occasionally sit in judgment over who can use the designation, or who is doing it right and wrong - admit that the audience is the final jury. That being said, I now open the floor for the greats of mentalism to tell y'all how wrong my rant was. As for me, I'm off to mesmerize another audience. |
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IAIN Eternal Order england 18807 Posts |
Mike - have you ever had a seperate site? I see your current one says "magician and psychic entertainer", and you have a section were you sell tricks too...
and the photo of you with the ball floating mysteriously in front of you... have you ever split these elements apart to see if perceptions and bookings change?
I've asked to be banned
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