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Magnus Eisengrim
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In 1987 a tornado ripped through Edmonton, killing 27 people and causing hundreds of millions of dollars damage. It was probably the worst natural disaster in our province's history.

A couple of weeks later, a Calvin and Hobbes cartoon described the devastation of a tornado with details that looked an awful lot like the Edmonton tornado. Understandably people were outraged, and Bill Watterson replied that the similarities were a mere coincidence and that no slight was intended.

Maybe this is a similar situation.

Maybe.

John
The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere
The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
The best lack all conviction, while the worst
Are full of passionate intensity.--Yeats
Marlin1894
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I'll accept that some people saw the design without accompanying text or images and never thought twice about 9/11, or the resemblence to the images of the twin towers prior to collapse. That's fine.

But now everyone HAS seen the design, and the accompanying text and images. So now what? Still ok or no? Even if it was a TOTAL coincidence, you still think they should go ahead with the design? Cause from what I can tell despite the double talk (and I'm not inclined to believe that somehow the Weekly Standard purposely mistranslated the piece, or purposely misquoted the design firm.) and thier "apology" about the design, there are no plans to change anything. It's going foward as far as I can tell.

So now that you can "see" it, what do you think about it? Or are there still some who can look at that design next to a picture of the twin towers burning and about to collapse still say "Nah, I don't see it."?
Salguod Nairb
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Ummmm... you do know the world doesn't revolve around the United States don't ya? I mean we could try to have every architect in the world send their building plans to the U.S. to see if it offends anyone.
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mastermindreader
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We're not talking about some minor offensiveness here, Douglas. We're talking about blatantly bad taste that any reasonable person would probably view as offensive, regardless of their nationality.

When I saw the photo I immediately thought of the Twin Towers before I read the caption.

The entire world saw what happened to the world trade center and that horrifying image is burned forever into the minds of thousands, if not millions. Would it have been ok to erect a downtown building in the shape of a nuclear explosion less than ten years after Hiroshima and Nagasaki. I don't think so, even though the world doesn't revolve around the Japanese either.

Good thoughts,

Bob
Tom Cutts
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Well said, Bob. You maintained a restraint I would not have.
Magnus Eisengrim
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Well Bob, I believe that I am a reasonable person, and I disagree.

But I think that you can disagree without calling my reason into question.

John
The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere
The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
The best lack all conviction, while the worst
Are full of passionate intensity.--Yeats
Salguod Nairb
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So those of us that did not jump to that conclusion are unreasonable? I did not perceive any malice in the article and the limited angle of the photo could be perceived as bias.

Should I expect to be banned because I have a voice and chose to disagree? It's not like I mentioned anything Taboo such as Whoppers...
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Salguod Nairb
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Yay! Magnus!
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Magnus Eisengrim
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Here a a few other angles:


Image


Image



Of course, these are merely renderings. The building has not been constructed.
The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere
The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
The best lack all conviction, while the worst
Are full of passionate intensity.--Yeats
Salguod Nairb
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Yep, but I guess anyone wanting to build any future pair/twin towers need to do a survey in advance.
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mastermindreader
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No - they would just be wise to exercise some taste.

Didn't mean to imply you were unreasonable, Magnus. I've read most of your posts and think you are an eminently reasonable man. But I think you would agree that it is not unreasonable to be offended by the design.

Or maybe it's better to put it this way - Is it reasonable to continue the project knowing that many will find it offensive?

Good thoughts,

Bob
Salguod Nairb
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I guess it is the word 'offended' that bothers me and the following keeps popping into my head....

“There can be no offence without intention or knowledge. It must be proved on record that a particular offence has been committed either with the intention or with the knowledge,”

Yes, I can see people perceiving offence, but I don't see the intent to insult or offend being the goal of the architects.

Bob, I am disagreeing with you not disrespecting you.
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Magnus Eisengrim
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Quote:
On 2011-12-12 20:21, mastermindreader wrote:


Or maybe it's better to put it this way - Is it reasonable to continue the project knowing that many will find it offensive?

Good thoughts,

Bob


Now that, I think, is the most interesting question. Reaction to that one rendering has been overwhelmingly negative. It is hard to see how they could possibly overcome that. They have two choices--back down by withdrawing or modifying the design, or to insist that once built no one would confuse the cloud for the terror site. My guess is that discretion will be the better part of valour and that they will back down.

John
The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere
The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
The best lack all conviction, while the worst
Are full of passionate intensity.--Yeats
LobowolfXXX
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Quote:
On 2011-12-12 20:31, Salguod Nairb wrote:


“There can be no offence without intention or knowledge. It must be proved on record that a particular offence has been committed either with the intention or with the knowledge,”

Yes, I can see people perceiving offence, but I don't see the intent to insult or offend being the goal of the architects.



However, by your own quotation, the issue isn't exclusively intent, but intent *or knowledge*. And has apparently been admitted, they do have the knowledge of the resemblance (and apparently recognized it at the outset).

Of course, I would certainly agree that they have the right to offend whomever they want. They don't, however, have a right not to get called out on it.
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Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
mastermindreader
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Douglas- I totally agree that it is unlikely that the architects intended to cause offense. I seriously doubt that they did. My guess is that they just weren't thinking about what the design actually looked like when viewed at a wide angle. I just saw a story on the television news regarding the reactions of 9-11 survivors and their families (who come from all over the world, not just the US). They are, apparently, very upset about this and I believe that is totally understandable.

I know you weren't being disrespectful. I just didn't think that that this particular subject was an example of Americans thinking the world revolves around them. It was the WORLD Trade Center, after all, where companies from around the world had offices. People of all faiths and nationalities lost loved ones that day. (I, too, had friends who perished there. The Trade Center was where several companies I did business with had their headquarters and I also performed there on several occasions. I guess I was lucky, though - my daughter had just applied for a job in the twin towers and was to have started work later in the month.)

Magnus- I really should have phrased in that way in the first place. Now that they know that the imagery is hurtful to many I, too, believe that they will change the design. They have, after all, already apologized, and am inclined to believe the apology was sincere.

Good thoughts,

Bob
Salguod Nairb
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Exactly. But since it wasn't meant with any malice I don't see a need to change the building design (though I suspect they will) having explained their original intention. I have been outside the U.S. for the last 8 years fighting the good fight (won’t go into detail on a public forum) and have gained some perspective. It reminded me of the protest over the Mosque semi-near the WTC. My opinion would have been different if this building was in Iran, but having been to South Korea I did not see a reason for the venom.

Lobo, yep they were called on it and offered a reasonable explanation. I would categorize this as a misunderstanding rather than a direct offence.
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foolsnobody
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I wonder if the rent will be higher or lower for a "jutting out unit" than for a "normal" one? Or if your "jutting out" unit is cheaper if there is another "jutting out" unit jutting out above it, maybe even farther out than one's own? Come to think of it, can they add more "jutting out units" later and really screw up your view like in some U.S. land development schemes? All these questions arise.
mastermindreader
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Whether or not an action is offensive has nothing to do with the intent of the offender, but rather by the extent of its effect on others. I might think it very clever to go to a church sponsored costume party dressed as the Pope wearing a tutu, but I imagine that I would have a hard time denying it was offensive simply because of my own "misunderstanding" of, or obliviousness to, what is and isn't appropriate.

Good thoughts,

Bob
Marlin1894
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They knew exactly what they were doing.
Salguod Nairb
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Quote:
On 2011-12-13 02:16, mastermindreader wrote:
Whether or not an action is offensive has nothing to do with the intent of the offender, but rather by the extent of its effect on others. I might think it very clever to go to a church sponsored costume party dressed as the Pope wearing a tutu, but I imagine that I would have a hard time denying it was offensive simply because of my own "misunderstanding" of, or obliviousness to, what is and isn't appropriate.


You’re painting a very narrow picture. My argument is valid if the party wasn't at a church. Someone may be offended at the party but the party as a collective. Erecting a building in South Korea which was designed by the Dutch is not the same as building it in NY at ground zero. I will concede the possibility that the architect may have created the design to create controversy (I said possibility) to create a buzz about the architect. I don't think it is the case, but in this current world it is not impossible. Would you concede that there is a possibility that Americans are becoming hypersensitive (I said possibility)?
We shall meet in the place where there is no darkness...
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