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Andrew Zuber Inner circle Los Angeles, CA 3014 Posts |
Just wanted to get opinions on this. I'm working on a new close up set and I may (or may not, depending on your answers) have a dilemma as far as what routines I'd like to use.
I always (always) open my show with the Pat Page water glass production from a spectator's jacket. Hooks 'em right in with something visual from the get go. From there, I'd like to go into my version of the Three Ball Transposition. I love the routine (I'm biased) and find it's nice to do something a little different early on, rather than going straight into cards. It's just my personal preference. The issue (maybe) is that I'd like to end my set with my cups and balls routine. The middle of my show consists of a few card routines and a few things with coins, just to give you some perspective. I would say there's about a 15 minute set of cards and coins, so that's the amount of time that would separate the two different ball routines. Do you think more than one effect with balls is too much in the same set? My idea had been to use the same balls for both routines, so I could sort of book-end my set with them. I produce a final load with the Three Ball Transposition, but I could come up with a different finish for that (I have a few ideas in mind) so that it wouldn't detract from the final loads in the cups and balls. This is for a more formal setting (think the Close-up Gallery at the Castle or a cocktail party with audience seating and a dedicated performance space.) Any opinions/suggestions would be much appreciated!
"I'm sorry - if you were right, I would agree with you." -Robin Williams, Awakenings
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Magic Researcher Elite user 406 Posts |
Will the audience be able to see and understand the card and coin effects? Two ball effects would be fine as long as the cups routine does not resemble the ball routine (back and forth to and from pocket etc.). It really should be different. How about no pocket involvement at all? If the ball routine is stand-up and cups seated, they will appear different too.
MR
Repeating a falsehood often and loudly does not make it true.
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Andrew Zuber Inner circle Los Angeles, CA 3014 Posts |
Both effects are done standing - as they're routined they have to be, especially the cups and balls. I don't ever go to the pocket for the coins or card routines. That's good advice - making sure the stuff in between doesn't mirror the other routines. I will definitely keep that in mind!
"I'm sorry - if you were right, I would agree with you." -Robin Williams, Awakenings
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Pete Biro 1933 - 2018 18558 Posts |
No problem. Don Alan did Chop Cup, Bowl, lump of coal under hat... all in one set. Almost all the same effect. But it works. See you tomorrow.
STAY TOONED... @ www.pete-biro.com
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volto Special user 603 Posts |
I have no business expressing opinions here, since I'm not a pro, I don't do the transpo and I've never seen your act. So this will be unfocussed advice from an inexperienced source, based on inadequate information. On the other hand, you did ask... so...
How similar are the ball routines, the way you perform them? It sounds like both routines could be made to be very similar - you mention a final load in the three ball transpo - in which case I'd say change the transpo to differentiate it, if it feels wrong. I wouldn't mess with the cups and balls as a finale. The classic Vernon version of the three ball transposition with two spectators holding a handkerchief, and the all-balls-vanish finale could have a very different feel to the cups and balls. The transpo seems like it's more about the strict conditions - the two spectators very close, the careful counting of the balls, and the repetition - with some comedy coming from that, and the direct interplay with the audience. Wheras the cups and balls seems to me to be more about flamboyant productions, vanishes, transpositions and penetrations all building up in a flurry to the final loads. There's a note in Ganson's write up of the three ball transpo where he mentions that Vernon used a lemon final load for the transpo, for repeat performances. So maybe, performed a certain way, the transpo could become a kind of cupless cups and balls, especially if you add in some other ball effects - productions, vanishes, color changes maybe - the two routines could easily start to get muddled. I guess that, if the transpo is kept to transposition and doesn't involve a final load - then when the cups and balls starts, the ball effects will be new and interesting (productions, penetrations, vanishes) and when the loads happen, it'll be "WHERE DID THAT LEMON COME FROM?!" rather than "hey, there's that lemon again". That's how I'd do it, anyhow - I'd keep the transpo simple, focussing on the comedy of the repetition and have a lot of interaction, with a vanish rather than a final load ending. Then the cups can be all about a flurry of new impossible stuff and a fruit based finale. |
Larry Barnowsky Inner circle Cooperstown, NY where bats are made from 4770 Posts |
The objects that you use to perform the magic with are less important than the way they are presented in an entertaining way. For example, sometimes when I do the Cups and Balls I follow it with A Curious Type of Arithmetic. In that case, I use White Fakini Billiard Balls for three of the loads and a fruit for the final one. I then use the three billiard balls for the ball and hat trick. For those interested, both of those routines are in The Book of Destiny and are also taught and performed on the companion DVD.
Some magicians will use a single modality to stay with a theme. Ricky Jay with cards, David Roth with coins, Tabary with ropes etc. There are no hard and fast rules. See what works for you and look for direct feedback from your audience as well as your perception of their response to the routines. Larry |
billappleton Inner circle Los Gatos, California 1154 Posts |
Hi Andrew,
One course of action is to evaluate the alternative. What happens if you combine the ball routines, or perform them next to each other? I ended up combining all of my sponge ball tricks as part of the Benson Bowl, this is a big multi-part routine. For me this flowed better, and cut down on prop introductions. |
Dr_J_Ayala Inner circle In search of Vlad Dracul and his 2169 Posts |
I see no problems with your idea Andrew. It is no different than a mentalism show that requires or uses 5 different types of cards of various sizes/materials/graphics during a show.
Say you want to perform three different effects/routines in a set, all requiring the use of balls. I think that as long as each effect/routine is at least a little different from each other, or if the size, color and materials the balls are all made out of are different from routine to routine, it should not be a problem. An example would be doing the Three Ball Trick (one of my favorites also - and I assume this is the same effect to which you are referring) with three small, blue silicon balls, a Benson Bowl or 2 In the Hand/1 In the Pocket with green sponge balls and a cups and balls routine with red crocheted balls. Each of the sets of balls is unique, and that just breaks up any monotony for the audience. Any small change in the outcome of the different effects or the props used in each of them (no matter how similar they are) will help keep their attention. I hope this is not confusing to you. If it is, let me know and I will try to clarify further. To sum it up, it is all in the presentation. I know you said you like to open with the Pat Page Water Glass production (also a great effect), but might I suggest trying a running gag throughout the show to see if it works for you and the set you choose? The running gag would be to start with your usual, but ever so often produce one of your C&B cups from the same spectator, if you can find a viable set-up for such a thing. Maybe it would work and maybe not - at least in my head, the idea sounds good. |
Alan Munro Inner circle Kentwood, Michigan, USA 5952 Posts |
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On 2011-12-21 01:55, Pete Biro wrote: He even did Benson Bowl on top of that. In his act, the objects were just props. Don Alan was the magic. |
Andrew Zuber Inner circle Los Angeles, CA 3014 Posts |
It's late so I won't write a dissertation for a response now, but thank you for all the feedback! I talked a bit with Pete about it today and there seem to be some good ideas here as well, so it definitely feels like I can get both routines in without sacrificing either one.
And Dr_J_Ayala - I like the running gag idea! It would be a challenge to get set up for the cups and balls at the end, but it might very well be worth the effort.
"I'm sorry - if you were right, I would agree with you." -Robin Williams, Awakenings
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admagic1 New user Australia 13 Posts |
Just received Roger Nicot's Cocktail Bar Cup from Mark Mason and it's probably the best chop cup I've ever owned! Brilliantly well-made and flawless operation! For the uninitiated, this is a chop cup in the shape of a cocktail shaker, complete with strainer and lid (small cup). As a finale, you can produce a drink from it as well! It's fabulously designed and the construction is excellent. The drink production gimmick is totally flawless (no accidental leaking here!) and you receive everything you need, all nicely presented in a drawstring bag, which acts as a working surface for the routine. As I'm just about to start a Magic Bar, this is absolutely ideal and I can't recommend it highly enough. The best $100 you'll ever spend!
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admagic1 New user Australia 13 Posts |
As for the ball routine and the cup & ball routine appearing in the same set, why not deliberately link them? Do the all-ball vanish at the end of the ball transpo routine and then have the balls turn up at the end, perhaps in a cup you've been using to drink water from throughout? The balls have vanished from the net and have reappeared in your cup...then that can make you recall....etc. Nice call-back if you ask me and not repetitive at all, if you do the right cup and ball routine!
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The Burnaby Kid Inner circle St. John's, Canada 3158 Posts |
The real issue here isn't so much sameness of prop, but rather sameness of presentational dynamics involving the prop.
In the Cups and Balls, the magician makes little balls jump around as the audience watches, culminating in the surprise climax. In the Three Ball Transposition, the magician makes little balls jump around as the audience watches, culminating (if you're incorporating a final load) in a surprise climax. Obviously it's impossible to say without seeing the way you approach the trick, but from the sounds of it, there might be a certain redundancy in dynamic. By way of contrast, something like spongeballs would allow you to interact with the audience, get the magic into their hands, as well as incorporate a few different effects (splitting, multiplication, etc.). Can you describe in more detail the way the two routines play out? There might be enough contrast and escalation that would make possible concerns of redundancy moot.
JACK, the Jolly Almanac of Card Knavery, a free card magic resource for beginners.
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Andrew Zuber Inner circle Los Angeles, CA 3014 Posts |
I don't use spectators with a net for my version of the three ball transposition - I use a large brandy snifter to catch them, similar to what Vernon did. I do an appearance of the balls, one by one, followed by four short phases - two where the balls travel from one hand to the other, and two of the 2 in the hand, 1 in the pocket variation, culminating in a final load.
As for the cups and balls, think Kent Gunn's Fun Shop routine. That will give you an idea of what I'm doing there. I do like the idea of having the balls reappear at the end for the cups and balls! That's something I could certainly work on and it fits my style very well.
"I'm sorry - if you were right, I would agree with you." -Robin Williams, Awakenings
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Roger Nicot V.I.P. Melksham, England 105 Posts |
Quote:
On 2011-12-22 06:21, admagic1 wrote: Thanks admagic! Give it a good home and Great Luck on the opening of a Magic Bar. Having been in the restautant/bar business for years, I am aware of some of the challanges ahead. All the best to you in 2012! |
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