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RJE2 Veteran user 383 Posts |
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On 2012-01-30 14:24, Donald Dunphy wrote: And you had every right to be offended and to take the actions that you did. Putting it into context, you were the audience Donald and the salesman was the performer. The audience determines what is appropriate, not the performer. In this case, the performer made the mistake of not knowing his audience. |
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RJE2 Veteran user 383 Posts |
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On 2012-01-30 14:25, Billy-one wrote: Billy, people generally don't like to be called crazy. |
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Donald Dunphy Inner circle Victoria, BC, Canada 7563 Posts |
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On 2012-01-30 14:25, Billy-one wrote: I also think it's wrong to think the only venues that would object to profanity are kids shows. There are lots of family shows, illusion shows, adult shows for corporate audiences, etc., where it just wouldn't be appropriate. I think that Rob makes a good point about knowing your audience. To change the subject for a second, I think that as magicians and entertainers, it is our job to communicate. That's why I wonder about people who have serious spelling and grammar problems, and they don't seem to realize that those problems are "interference" when trying to talk to others and win them to your way of thinking. They sometimes shrug off these problems, often saying that the message is more important than how it's being said. I kind of feel the other way. I'd rather see them trying to work on their own spelling and grammar, so they can communicate more effectively (and also being a role model, in that we should all strive to grow and improve). I get really frustrated with that "interference". I'm glad that Billy-one has said that he wants help with spelling and grammar (see first post on this thread, back on page one). Here's a previous thread on this subject: --> Magic Café thread titled... How ......ur image - Donald
Donald Dunphy is a Victoria Magician, British Columbia, Canada.
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Pecan_Creek Veteran user The Nation of TEXAS! 323 Posts |
But if you call someone crazy in the right way at the right venue its perfectly acceptable!
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RJE2 Veteran user 383 Posts |
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On 2012-01-30 16:01, Pecan_Creek wrote: heheheheheehee Now you've got it!!! |
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Billy-one Inner circle IOWA 1028 Posts |
I don't agree with bad spelling as a downside to my performance, as I seldom if ever spell anything. If I do, its a simple word or something I just peaked, often mispelling that makes the effect stronger. However, as a human being I agree fully that spelling and grammer are important in communication, as a whole.
RJE2, I didn't call anyone crazy, just implied that only crazy people would be so closed minded to assume that profanity and magic performances can not co exsist As, full disclosure...I work as a bar magician who is in the process of going into stage mentalism. I am working very hard at mentalism and making a proffesional stage show. In this show I don't plan on using profanity, becuse I am a pro and understand the "right time and place" of venues. However, my manuscript was geared torwards bar magic and how many are under the false assumption that doing cool "tricks" is even half the reason you should be hired. More full disclosure, I have never....ever...failed to be re-booked, once I stopped the b.s. respect, Billy |
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Billy-one Inner circle IOWA 1028 Posts |
Also,
When doing large corporate events, like the Victory Mortor cycle rally I performed at this summer, I don't make assumptions of how profanity would fly. As, often, I am a reflection of whom hired me and would not presume that the company would opt for a very blue apperance...even considering it was for a bunch of bikers I don't think that only kids shows should be void of foul language, however when I have a clear path to seperating myself from the general perception of an "old school" magician by showing my intimate audience that Im just a normal guy with flaws, depth of personality, and cool tricks; then of coarse I will opt to communicate outside the borders of the status quo. |
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Billy-one Inner circle IOWA 1028 Posts |
More tid-bits from my manuscript, in effort to show that its not just magician bashing...also, to demonstrate my desperate need of grammer/spelling help
A quick idea for real works Ever worked with a few drinks in your system? I seldom work without a few drinks coursing through my veins, but that’s a personal problem. I drop cards every once in awhile, perhaps it’s because I have had a few, but more likely that I get clumsy at times. Also, I work for grabby people at times, due to their intoxication or obnoxication levels. This leads me to a tip that seems basic but I have been doing this for years and it always gets a laugh…this is a good thing and a genuine tip to becoming a cooler and better performer. Ok, assume you are about to do a version of the ambitious card, for any reason a single card falls from the deck…perhaps they plucked out a card and the one next to their selection came along for the ride. Here is how I handle the “problem” and turn it into something more than just bending down and picking up the card like it never happened. When bending down to pick up the dropped card I will say, “Ugh, these *** things…perhaps I shouldn’t have had that last gin and tonic” This is not funny, but it gets chuckles and also places the blame upon you for dropping the card, even when most of the time is the participants fault. As you pick up the card and as if its and afterthought, “Was this your card”!! You ask a spectator that was not involved with the selection process. This question is asked in the pitch and tone that I discussed earlier and said it should be avoided. I often use the traditional magic tone when I’m trying to get a laugh as being cheesy. Assume the fallen card is the seven of hearts. When you ask a random person who was not involved in the selection if the fallen card was his, two or more things happen. 1) It involves another spectator. 2) It gets a laugh because they know you messed up but decided to make something about it instead of ignoring it (this is what makes connections) and 3) it shows that you don’t take yourself too serious and that you know what you are doing is fun and for fun. “Your sure this isn’t your card” Your tone is back to a normal voice as you put the card back into the deck. “Well, you never know…” as you are mumbling about this person not picking a card and how much of an *** you are for dropping a card “wait, you didn’t even have a card” calling attention back to the spectator that you accused of choosing the dropped card. Now, continue your ambitious card with the original participant but when it feels right, perhaps after the first revelation of the card going back to the top of the deck, say “I thought for sure that his (pointing to the other guy) card was goanna be the one that comes to the top”, this gets another laugh. Also, often the guy will say “that wasn’t my card!!” or someone else in the crowd will. At this point you force the dropped card on said spectator and say...” See, I told you it was your card, now stop ****ing with me” this is a slam dunk laugh. Also, I do say stop ****ing with me, but you could use a more P.C. line if that fits your personality or performing venue. I will talk about using profanity later, but I do not and will never think that the use of profanity will make or break a performance, it just fits me and fitting me is what allows me to connect in a genuine way. I will often keep making call backs to the phantom chosen card when performing the rest of the routine, also remember the card and the guy because later you can force it on him again to blow the roof off the venue. |
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Joey Evans Special user Fort Myers, FL 535 Posts |
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On 2012-01-29 13:34, Sam Sandler wrote: I believe this is close to my opinion, but I believe the use of foul language does several things, but for one denotes lack of effort. Can one get a laugh by putting a well placed expletive in their joke because of it's shock value? Yes. I'm sure we have all done it at one time or another. However, you can also get the same effect through another means and thinking it through more completely. Watch Red Skelton and see how he put together his comedy and many comedy greats since then. However, my biggest problem with vulgarity is that it limits your audience. Put away whether you are christian, agnostic, or atheist, and whether you approve of it morally. It does limit your audience. There is no arguing that. The majority of my work is corporate and many times the director will come and talk to me about what not to say and where the line is. Nevermind the nature of the organization, you never know the affiliations of the people in the audience or the people who are paying your bill, so why take the chance? I have many friends that frantically try to feel it out and toe the line and have gotten burned by a reprimand afterwards or the one thing all of us entertainers hate, the awkward silence when the audience knows you've crossed a line. In that aspect, in my opinion, avoiding profanity and making a show that will work in any situation whether at a Christian Publishing House or a Harley Davidson Biker Festival is the way to go. Once the show is made to fit into any of those avenues, it makes so much less work for me in the backend.
The Visual Comedy and Magic of Joey Evans
http://www.Evansmagic.com/ The Impossible Has Never Been So Funny! |
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Donald Dunphy Inner circle Victoria, BC, Canada 7563 Posts |
I like Joey's comment about vulgarity limiting your audience. You've had a number of magicians on this thread say that they object to profanity. So, does that mean you won't be including it in your manuscript? Or does that mean you'll include it, and decide that they aren't your potential audience?
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On 2012-01-30 17:45, Billy-one wrote: I was speaking about writing a manuscript (or even forum posts) to help other performers. And I was speaking about written communication with show customers. Those require attention to spelling and grammar, to reduce "interference". I think it's especially important when a person wants to go beyond mere communication, and actually persuade or teach another. - Donald
Donald Dunphy is a Victoria Magician, British Columbia, Canada.
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RJE2 Veteran user 383 Posts |
I would say that being able to use foul language comfortably adds to your audience, not diminishes it.
I have no problems at all performing at a stag for 700 drunk men one night, squeezing 15 minute sets between strippers and using language that would have got me killed at the dinner table as a kid, and then the next day doing a 60 minute show for a children's festival in front of 400 people. Then that evening doing a clean corporate show for 250 adults. I don't personally have a problem with it. I don't offend the people I am working for at any of the venues. I entertain them and they like the show. I think it is unfortunate that some feel it is necessary to judge acts that are different from what they would choose to do. I think it is perfectly alright for someone to choose not to do certain types of shows for their own personal reasons. But I don't think they should try and tell others that they should not do them. If profanity offends you then don't use it and don't go to shows where the audience expects it. And please, please don't try and say that the performer who chooses to use it is somehow less talented or going for a cheap laugh. That is a worn stereotype that is far more offensive to some than a dirty word. A lousy act is a lousy act. Profanity won't save it. A good act is a good act whether it uses profanity or not. If opera gives you a headache, then don't go and see one, but don't try and tell everyone the tenor has no talent just because you and your friends don't like that type of music. |
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Joey Evans Special user Fort Myers, FL 535 Posts |
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On 2012-01-30 20:02, RJE2 wrote: I have performed everywhere from cruise ships to comedy clubs to corporate events, and I have never had a show "where the audience expects it." I've had shows where the people have told me, "Hey, feel free to be as dirty as you want." However, the audience, no matter where you are wants a great show. Whether you use vulgarity or not, they want a great show. If you deliver a great show, they won't be upset afterwards if you didn't use any vulgarity. I remember doing my cruise work, I would work the Captain's Quarters and they wanted a more blue show or doing a bachelor's (or stag) party where they wanted the same. I didn't use vulgarity, but the show was more adult oriented in it's content as far as topical content. It got rave reviews and I stayed on the cruise line for years and booked more of the same parties. (In fact, I booked a corporate show from a stag party that may not have come out if I wouldn't have been clean.) People will forget what you say and what you do, but they will never forget how you made them feel. Whether you use vulgarity or not. My point was not that you can't use it where it's appropriate, my point is, in my opinion, it's safer not to. In the corporate world, it's much safer to use a show that will work in any environment and with anyone in the audience. What I do works with my experience. To be honest, there was a time when I was doing comedy clubs, that I was getting more and more blue and edgy. However, when I would book a corporate show, I would have to change my act and omit some routines. I decided I wanted an act that was hysterically funny and would work across the board. So I made one. I have no doubt that you can do one show using vulgarity and one show not using vulgarity. My point is it's much easier for me to have one show that I continually work on and improve that works across the board. Having performed full time for 15 years, this works for me. Your mileage may vary. After all, if we were all the same I would probably not get as many bookings as there would be nothing to set us apart.
The Visual Comedy and Magic of Joey Evans
http://www.Evansmagic.com/ The Impossible Has Never Been So Funny! |
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MuleePete Loyal user 272 Posts |
Just my own observation, I see most "performers" are in love with the IDEA of performing. Putting in the time and effort to make their presentation entertaining is a harsh reality most do not commit to, and perfer to continue being mediocre just to have their egos stroked.
Having worked with a music act for several years, I watched rehearsal go from serious busniess inmpoving the act, to walking in test the mics and leave. The show quality suffered, but because they are the only game in town, and the audiance had nothing to compare them to, the paychecks flowed. Managment only looks at the bottom line, and not the product being sold. I call it fraud, and is part of the reason I walked away. Performers need to take responsibility for their product just as a contractor is repsonsible for building a house properly or a doctor performing surgery succesfuly. Take pride in the memory you are creating thru conjuring. In the end, it is not about you. It is about those you entertain in the name of PERFORMING. Just my rant. Pete |
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RJE2 Veteran user 383 Posts |
Hi Joey,
I believe you have a wonderful act and are kept very busy. I understand exactly what you're saying about the choices you're making and would not criticize you for you decisions. I'm also going to pm you some links to show you where I'm coming from because I do not want to give out my business dealings on the open forum. See you on the other side. |
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Mindpro Eternal Order 10587 Posts |
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On 2012-01-30 23:32, MuleePete wrote: Very good points Pete. I've chosen to keep my horse out of this race after the lengthy Benji thread, but must say I think you are on something very true here. To many, the idea of their success and reality is much different from their actual level of success and reality. In my opinion only a small potion of performers run their performances as a business first, with their performance simply being their actual product. I too for many years, even though full-time, ran things solely based on my performance(s). When you finally look at it in a way where you realize it's more about running a business of entertaining clients and audiences with your product (your show(s) and affiliated services) only then does your perspective and perceptions change, which in turn often changes the way you operate, execute shows, and most of all the choices you make about your business, perceptions and reputation of your business. |
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Vick Inner circle It's taken me 10+ years to make 1120 Posts |
As far as working "blue", I don't do it and beleive you can go further with innuendo than working "blue"
Innuendo can make the audience think, laugh and be dirtier than dropping the FBomb gratuitously We have different opinions here, I'm of the school that working blue can hurt more than help as you never know who is in the audience Early in my performing career I sought out the most challenging audiences to improve my skills including a 6 month stint as the featured illusionist in a burlesque review, imagine being the act going on before the featured burlesque artist (who was a popular draw, she even had a lesbian following) in front of a very inebriated Washington DC nightclub crowd. That was me, every week. Performing three 10 to 12 minute spots every Thursday night. Never once did I utter a curse word. Had the pleasure of working with 2 very talented Sax players (one was blind) who would sometimes jazz to my linking rings routine, yes I successfully pulled off linking rings in a nightclub to inebriated patrons (who often would offer to buy my drinks between sets, I never drink while working). One of my favorite things overheard at one of the bars in the club "yeah, they have a magician here, but he's not the cheesy kind of magician, he's actually really good". To this day that's one of the best compliments I ever received. Goes to show, there is a market for almost everything p.s. and I am a bit old fashioned
Unique, Thought Provoking & Amazing Magical Entertainment Experiences
Illusions By Vick Blog of a real world working magician Magic would be great, if not for magicians |
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RJE2 Veteran user 383 Posts |
Hi Vick,
I understand what you are saying and in many circumstances, you are right, being able to work clean for adults can get you a lot of work. However, if a performer is willing to also work blue (and not everyone does for whatever reasons), then they can work both. There are some venues where working blue is expected. I'll pm you. |
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Donald Dunphy Inner circle Victoria, BC, Canada 7563 Posts |
And yet, RJE2, you are the one making the point about where and when. If you read Billy-one's original post on the use of profanity, he doesn't clarify when or where. He just says it's ok. Remember, this is his article & his advice, but the people with more experience seem to be cleaning it up a lot for him.
Another way of putting it, is how many posts have you spent defending or clarifying his statement vs. how many posts has he spent defending or clarifying his statement? - Donald
Donald Dunphy is a Victoria Magician, British Columbia, Canada.
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Billy-one Inner circle IOWA 1028 Posts |
I guess, as an adult, I would assume its implied. My manuscript was not meant for children, nor people who can not formulate their own opinion. It was however written to showcase a diffrent side, perhaps a taboo side, of performing magic. All too often, magicians feel that they MUST work clean and at times this turns into just another corney magician. I respect Vick, although I don't know him, becuse he made a great case for working clean and he was given a compliment that I strive for, "hes good, not cheesey"...becuse this means that Vick is doing it right.
Sure, at times I use profanity as a weapon to disarm preconceived notions of a magician. I also use: eye contact, genuine smiles, laughter, well planned touches on the spectators shoulder and elbows, firm handshakes...ect ect. Its a shame that many on here that post about how Im trying to be abusive, fall into a catagory of poor performers and even worse, performers that can not connect with real audiences in real ways. I may not be the best magician/mentalist in the world (not even close, I'm sure) but I have full confidence that I can strip the notion of cheesy magician away from the audience within minutes, this I am proud of. Respect, Billy |
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RJE2 Veteran user 383 Posts |
You're right Donald. How are you doing by the way? It's been a while.
What I have been doing was showing a few people a market that is available that is not well known. I say not well known because I don't believe I have ever seen it discussed in a thread before. But there is a definite X Rated market out there and it is pretty big. I'm not talking about doing shows in night clubs, bars, strip clubs, comedy clubs or places where adults drink, party or hang out. I am talking about something beyond that. As extreme as that may sound, these events are often sponsored by very well known international service groups that are in most communities in Canada and the USA and have chapters in many other countries as well. The venues often have hundreds of men in the audience and women are often not allowed to attend. It definitely is not for every one, but there is a real demand for it and money to be made for those who work it. But you do have to work blue (to say the least) to do them. So anyway, that was why I was saying that there are venues/markets that if you work them, you HAVE to work blue. Again, good to talk to you and all the best! |
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