You have 13 posts... you need to restate the question...

37 more times.

This is a double cross play and it is a con using playing cards and completely different from hustling a game.

Duh

Jared Kopf's center deal looks as good as it gets and he has spent a lot of time working on it. The odd grip and tension are noticeably absent and his take doesn't look odd as is sometimes seen. I think if you saw it in person you would agree. However, I think (and I think Jared would agree) a legitimate center deal is what Charlie Miller would refer to as an "intrigue move", with very little practicability for both the magic and hustling worlds. As with any difficult move; however, there is satisfaction in answering the call.

I think Cagliostro's observation about Dai Vernon keeping the move alive for so long is probably accurate. I have always found it interesting that as much as the Professor expounded the deal that he he no (or none that I know of) tricks that utilized the center deal as the method. In my opinion, this is rather telling... at least as to its usefulness in magic. My own personal theory is that the story had far more value than the actual move.

Fantastic. You finally got it - at least that one time.

That is a good observation. It is my understanding the Vernon liked playing a little "one-upmanship" with the others at the Magic Castle and enjoyed telling them about the new gambling move he was privy to that the others did not know. He would toy with them for a while and then eventually "tip" the move. It was all part of the "fun" game with him.

He liked to refer to Georgio as a "tin-horn" gambler to get his goade and say that his moves were too crude and lacked finese. Then Georgio would sometimes smile, lean over and kiss the Professor on the head, "Italian style" with love in his heart.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH Must be comedy night...

Cartouche, please look at the situation this way. The secrets of magic are just that, secret. The fact that someone signs up on this BB, for free, does not entitle him to have the more knowledgeable members on the BB divulge the secrets of another magician. The fact that you have watched this repeatedly tells some of the members that you are not sufficiently knowledgeable to have the method divulged to you.

It might be best if you spend your time learning how to do magic on your own and become proficient at the art. That would be much more productive that shouting on the BB that no one is “helping” you. No one has to help you with something like that nor is anyone obligated to do so.

That is the reality of the situation, like it or not. Complaining or shouting further on the BB is not going to benefit you any further.

Hope this helps you somewhat and lays the matter to rest.

I completely agree with you. All I have to say for my defense is, we are in the gambling spot, I know nothing about magic but I read and research a lot about cheating at cards and dice (and more), and I was thinking that my demand was legitimate. If his technique is pure magic, you are right, I haven't the right to ask for help, and I am sorry for my previous post. If he use a "gambling technique" I am just blind and I have to re re re watch the video.

Delgaudio is a magician and his work, in my opinion, would classify as magic trickery. It was a TV performance to entertain under the guise of him being able to beat any game because of his ability. In a TV performance the tape can be stopped, started anew, etc.

Magic trickery with a gambling “flavor,” gambling expose demonstrations and getting the money with gambling “methods” are distinct and different endeavors although they can sometimes have some overlap.

Once gain, Delgaudio is a magician and nothing I have seen him do would fly in a game. It does not have to because he is entertaining, not cheating people.

Well yes it is fantastic, it only took you three days to get this one. You will soon be in fast company at this rate of improvement.

You are the one who gave the absurd example and now you are trying to pretend you didn't by "reversing" the situation. Do you realize how stupid you sound to anyone who has been paying attention to your posts?

By the way, I see that you said "Duh" when you realized what your error was. That is one of your better reponses, at least at your level of comprehension.

I have two files on my desktop, "Tommy's Laugh a Day" file and "The Idiot File." Can you guess what file your posts go into. Okay, I know that is too much of a challenge for you. The correct answer is they go into Both.

Incidentally, I have been meaning to ask you, in that very low stake poker room that you work in, does it have one or two tables and are you now a full time dealer or still "breaking-in?" Also, I see you avoided my question as to whether or not you can deal the Big Six wheel. Seems like you maybe you cannot even do that well?

I am glad you finally checked Erdnase about the "Display of Ability" section in The Expert at the Card Table but unfortuntely decided Erdnase was wrong in this regard. It seems that not only are you not dealing from a full deck mentally, it seems like we might be talking about only one-quater deck, and that is giving you the benefit of the doubt.

This is hilarious and I am patiently waiting for your next "Duh" response. It seems like you just keep putting your foot in your mouth. Remember, "It is better to be thought a fool and keep you mouth shut than to open it an remove all doubt." However, I think you passed that point some time back.

Information gleened from the newspaper.

What newspaper?

No news is good news?

First you make the claim that you go to the highest stakes private poker games in the world, where the rich people don't use dealers for fear of the dealers letting it be known there is millions in cash there on the table to be robbed, that you know the greatest dice and card hustlers in the universe and tell us real hustlers never demostrates skill nor use fancy magic moves. Then when I tell you, as a matter of provable fact, they use cheques in high stakes private games and not go to and from them with suitcases full of cash. That as a matter of fact, of provable fact, husltlers can, have and do demonstrate fancy magic moves to get the money, you say that is too cryptic for your brain and when I explain how it works to you you that its done in gambling confidence games you say that is not hustling but confidence game with cards and not hustling and I don't get it and as for high stakes poker games you claim I only know about them from being a dealer. In the meantime you offer pirate DVDs to the public and to top it all you call me names when I thought we were friends.

We are friends mostly because you obviously need a friend but I regret to inform you that through continuous use you have worn out the cushion that you sit on at the foot of my chair and I have sent it in for repairs. Unfortunately, you will have to sit on the floor for a while.

The rest of your post is so bizarre and exaggerated, even for you, I am not going to waste my time re-explaining. Inasmuch as you are dealing mentally from a quarter deck, you just don’t get it and never will.

By the way, how were the tokes last night or don’t the players tip in those low stake poker games you deal? You had better hope that the small joint you work in never goes to raking the pot. You would be in deep trouble trying to figure that out.

In any event, keep on pumping and keep those cards a'flying.

I know you are curious and will probably PM me for the answer but I will give you the information here. As usual, your last post went into both files, the Tommy Laugh a Day File and the Idiot File. You posts are good to read at parties for a big laugh.

I guess it is now back to the drawing board for you for another 12-24 hours to figure out what to say on your next “duh” post.

Trying to get the thread back on topic, I've found that with my work on the kennedy center that I like how the deck isn't 'smeared' for lack of a better term in the hand. In the book 'finding the center' the center described has the smear attribute that I don't particularly enjoy and to a much lesser extent, Jason England's deal has a smear as well.

Actually we should get the thread back on topic if possible. When you refer to the “smear” of the deck, I assume that you mean that the deck is beveled or fanned to the right over the left fingers, assuming one is holding the deck in the left hand while dealing. If that is what you mean then I have some comments regarding “smearing” to the right you might find interesting.

First be aware that I am writing from a position of someone who has no practical interest in the center deal since I don’t do demonstrations or magic tricks. However, I notice that for the bottom deal, most literature on the subject holds the deck in a squared up, block like grip. Also, some second deal techniques use the same squared up grip. However for me, and in my opinion, GENERALLY SPEAKING, both those deals look better when done with the deck fanned or beveled a little to the right.

One of the big tells on a bottom deal is the left finger flash when the bottom is taken. By fanning the deck to the right, the left fingers are extended and the deal has less finger flash. With the 2 deal, fanning the deal somewhat give better control of the cards and tends to conceal the upper left corner gap.

The Kennedy Center deal uses a right side squared up deck, although the deck is beveled forward. In order not to have any finger flash, the middle, ring and little finger must be moved well back from the left forefinger. That is why so much finger strength is needed to buckle the lower half of the deck. If all four fingers of the left hand are close together, then it is much easier to buckle the bottom half of the deck but the left fingers will flash more on the take of the center card. In other words, one cannot have his cake and eat it too.

On the other hand, under game conditions it is prudent to have the most relaxed looking holding of the deck as possible. While I think a center deal is a useless move in a game, I did develop a move to deal myself one Ace in a Hold’em game using a center. It was based upon a move I read in Genii magazine many years ago. As the right hand was completing the cut, the bottom few cards of the packet being placed on top of the cards on the table were hinged out to the right with the right little finger, somewhat like the Mexican Joe move for his bottom deal hop. On the square up, the small packet was briefed to the right and the remainder of the deck was “smeared” over the briefed or jogged packet to conceal it. The problem I found with this move was getting out one card at a time from the center. (This was at a time when I was still somewhat of a move junkie.)Since you mentioned the "smear" for center dealing, than I assume more modern literature has described something similar to this.

The center deal for Hold’em is the same except that only one card is jogged to the right on the completion of the cut. The deck is fanned over this one card and if the deck is held correctly, the players cannot see the extended card from any of their viewing angles. The deck looks a little sloppy and somewhat casual and dealing the one card is very deceptive, more so than even a bottom deal. To give yourself an Ace every time you deal in a private game is a nice edge to have. A good center dealer can do it every hand to his agent or “A” (confederate) but there are better ways for a center dealer to work with an “A” in Hold’em.

I only look at moves from the standpoint of game practicality. For someone like yourself, what I mention here may or may not have any value for your purposes.

Sorry, had an absolute mind blank in regards to the smearing of the cards. The technical term is indeed the bevel of the cards. I agree that when I'm dealing strikes seconds and bottoms that I use a bevel in the cards. However when I was reading through 'Finding the Center' and watching Jason's 1 on 1 on the subject of center dealing, an element of the deal I didn't particularly fancy was the exaggerated bevel of the deck to hide the Jim Cooper element of both of these center deals. Whilst re watching the both of the videos now, the bevel is no were near as bad as what I remembered it to look like. So my apologises do go out to Jason and Antonio Zuccaro as my post above was going off my memory which wasn't entirely accurate.
Anyway, to give people some more videos of centers I'll attach the trailer for Jason's 1 on 1 and Antonio's Center deal, when I compare it to the Kopf deal, I can't help but see some of the strengths and weaknesses of the Kennedy technique and the other two techniques


Antonio's Center Deal
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KtyLrm0I9iw
Jason England's center deal
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NkMPxIbG_DI

And what do you think about this one ?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yKEdfRkoX......TrYJWxVK

another angle
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QW9Tt--fP......xHxJ1Gp3

I don't know if these videos have already uploaded here.
But for me (I'm a magician), I have the feeling that this king of deal is possible at a card table. (I just talk about the move not about the cojones that you need to try this...)

I can't wait to read your different opinion !

Not quite perfect but quite acceptable at first sight. I'll have a closer look later, thanks.

Nicely performed and you are a very skillful young man.

Almost any move or gaff is possible at a card table, it depends upon the timing, the company you are playing against, how it is applied, the courage required, how much heat it will generate, etc.

The reason the center deal is rarely attempted, if ever, in knowing company or in a tough game is because it requires a great amount of practice to end up with a passable move compared with other methods which can achieve similar results (i.e. getting the money), more safely and more deceptively, especially with a deck that is getting worn or with plastic cards.

With a new deck under ideal conditions, on video (which is somewhat forgiving because of the angle shot at, picking the best deal from a number of shots taken, being warmed up, etc.), your demo looks very nice. It is possible to nitpick but such nitpicking IMHO would be mostly academic.

I think something like this would require tremendous guts to try in a tough money game, and would probably fly until you got a bad hanger, or two cards came out, or the deck got sticky, or someone started to “burn” you and your execution became flawed due to extreme nervousness, or the deck got cut too high or too low, etc., etc., etc.

Most card cheats who really hustle would rarely if ever consider spending time on something like this. There are too many “if” considerations to effectively employing this over time in different games and it takes a lot of practice to get it to possibly “passable “execution under game conditions, and even then it is not certain and quite dangerous.

If you someday get in a game for serious money against reasonably astute opponents, the answer to your academic question will hit you, in no uncertain terms, in a “New York second.”

However, you do this very nicely and it certainly can be sold to an audience as being the most effective, most highly coveted method only used by the most skillful super cheats in the world - and of course you can do it too.