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FrenchDrop Inner circle I can name that tune in 1647 Posts 
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On 2012-03-12 00:56, Xiqual wrote: I remember checking out the Creative site when that deal was first offered. If I performed regularly and did platform magic, I'd be sorely tempted...and part of the temptation would be the "mystery box" factor. So I get that. I do have my doubts about Real Secrets -- the details and reasons for which I've stated and won't belabor here -- but I do get the attraction of the monthly-magic-surprise thing. And I really do hope it turns out great. I'm personally not getting a promising vibe -- but I'm just one dude.
"A great magician has said of his profession that its practitioners '… must pound and rack their brains to make the least learning go in, but quarrelling always comes very naturally to them.'” -- Susanna Clarke, Jonathan Strange and Mr Norrell
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Mr. Mystoffelees Inner circle I haven't changed anyone's opinion in 3623 Posts
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On 2012-03-11 21:45, newguy wrote: newguy- It was not my intention to cast stones here, please forgive me if it sounded that way. To answer your questions: What could you imagine in a best of all worlds scenario? More like what I am used to when I purchase something. Usually you can see it, feel it, get reviews on it- hell, Bose just gave me a 60 day free trial on their Wave system, as did DR Trimmer and Tempurpedic. Bought a diamond and got to take it for an appraisal before purchase. Please don't tell me how little the amount of this deal is, I don't adjust lifetime habits because the stakes are small any more than Tiger Woods goofs off on the golf course. Is there any chance that these guys actually deliver, buyers like what they get, play along, keep getting more things they like, month after month. Of course, there is always a chance. However, "It may be that the race is not always to the swift, nor the battle to the strong - but that's the way to bet." Damon Runyon - Guys and Dolls (1932) What would that be like? It would be... refreshing, and I hope it turns out just that way. Too impossible to imagine? I have a really good imagination, so no. And now, perhaps you will consent to answer the question I asked: The question is, once the vender has what it wants, what does it deliver? I am trying to think of just one model in the " real world" but, apart from Bernie can not come up with one. Could you help me? Mr. Mystoffelees, if you please... p.s. Xiqual- How NEAT that you are part of the Creative idea! I wanted to do it, but I love their stuff and have most of it already. I am glad it is working out, and hope RS does as well! Ain't that Creative stuff great?? Jim
Also known, when doing rope magic, as "Cordini"
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Tom Jorgenson Inner circle LOOSE ANGLES, CALIFORNIA 4451 Posts
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Perhaps they are breaking new ground here, making their own new 'model'. We shall see. I think the whole thing is exciting.
"The question is, once the vender has what it wants, what does it deliver? " We do not know what the vendor wants...we do know that loot is obviously not their top priority. So, judging the future by the past, this should well be worth its money.
We dance an invisible dance to music they cannot hear.
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FrenchDrop Inner circle I can name that tune in 1647 Posts
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On 2012-03-12 16:41, Tom Jorgenson wrote: We do? How so?
"A great magician has said of his profession that its practitioners '… must pound and rack their brains to make the least learning go in, but quarrelling always comes very naturally to them.'” -- Susanna Clarke, Jonathan Strange and Mr Norrell
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Tom Jorgenson Inner circle LOOSE ANGLES, CALIFORNIA 4451 Posts
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@ Frenchdrop-
Well, they'd have handled everything much differently. Wouldn't you have, if profit was your top priority? They'd have been on every forum touting this to the skies, would have been very loud and verbose, and would have had all their friends online too, trying to drum up business, just like most every new release in the field. So far, the dignified restraint portends minor miracles and sundry amazements. So far it's been 'Here's what it is and how much it is, and the rules. It's going to be fun, climb onboard if you want.' You don't turn people away if you want their money. This ain't The Sting. It's creative people doing a new creative thing and getting trashed for it by everyone who knows nothing about it, but disagrees with some point of the business model. My response to this is just opposite of yours...I got a good vibe on this from the git-go. I KNOW how much fun this thing could be, and I know nothing bout it. I'm waiting for April... ...and that maddening silence from the members.
We dance an invisible dance to music they cannot hear.
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DelMagic Special user Delaware 760 Posts
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On 2012-03-12 16:46, FrenchDrop wrote: Because they gave money back when people weren't happy with the terms of program. If they were in it for the money, they wouldn't be "ejecting" those who already paid but then turned off the auto-renewal. They returned $144 per person for those who didn't turn it back on. That's $144 they already had in their coffers and they did that based on a 2nd transaction that wasn't going to happen for another 11.5-12 months anyway. For those who have money as their top priority, that's an odd way to do business. People who are in it for the cash would do all they could to widen the membership base and hold on to those who paid, rather than blatantly limit it. Consider the new "applications" as well. And I am not convinced this all some grand reverse psychology plan to make people want it by withholding it from them. This won't be easy. I'll bet magicians who buy stuff with ads, reviews, videos, etc. still don't like half of the stuff they get so it's going to be hard to satisfy the customer here if this isn't quality material. |
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FrenchDrop Inner circle I can name that tune in 1647 Posts
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On 2012-03-12 17:52, DelMagic wrote: That's an...interesting way of looking at it. Another way of looking at it would be that they're enforcing a policy that says "If you want what we're selling, you have to agree to let us automatically charge you another $144 next year." So, in about a year's time, they'll be able to look at the number of subscribers they still have, do a little simple math, and know they've got a guaranteed injection of X amount of dollars coming soon. That doesn't speak of an operation that's not in it primarily for the money. Neither does having people pay for a year's worth of product in advance, sight-unseen. Of course the Real Secrets people are in it primarily for the money. There's nothing wrong with that. So's Tannen's, Penguin, BBM, Paper Crane, etc. There are easier ways of making money, more lucrative things to sell, bigger markets to go after, so I'm sure they're all in it for the love of magic, too -- but they ain't non-profit organizations. It's up to every individual to decide if he wants to sign up for Real Secrets. It may turn out to be a fantastic deal. It's too soon to say, and only the most cynical person would assume it's a scam this early in the game. I just think everyone who goes for it should do so with open eyes. Telling yourself Real Secrets isn't in it primarily for the money is as bad as telling yourself they're hiding their identities to make things more fun for the customer.
"A great magician has said of his profession that its practitioners '… must pound and rack their brains to make the least learning go in, but quarrelling always comes very naturally to them.'” -- Susanna Clarke, Jonathan Strange and Mr Norrell
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Tom Jorgenson Inner circle LOOSE ANGLES, CALIFORNIA 4451 Posts
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Not to be splitting hairs, but I think there's a difference between the terms 'top priority' and 'primarily for the money'. At any rate, it's all moot: Opinions and Blue Smoke until April.
We dance an invisible dance to music they cannot hear.
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Xiqual Inner circle Upper left quadrant 4937 Posts
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Except with Paypal, it does not work like that. In March of 2013, you just go to your private section and unclick the recurring payment box. No payment will go out to Real Secrets. You will, of course be turned down for the next year. Sellers cannot even alter this function. They cannot turn it back on or turn it off.
James ps I do want to ask what is wrong with making money? When I do shows, I am all about getting paid. I want as high a fee as the market will bear. When I negotiate my fee for teaching, I also charge as much as I can get. In business, if you do not charge what the market will bear, you will fail. Just wondering why people seem to scorn making money. Quote: On 2012-03-12 18:07, FrenchDrop wrote:
Still with the Chinese circus
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FrenchDrop Inner circle I can name that tune in 1647 Posts
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On 2012-03-12 18:57, Xiqual wrote: I'm not saying Real Secrets can use the automatic renewal to force people to pay who don't want to continue their subscriptions; I'm saying it's a way of making sure they get another $144 for every satisfied customer on a specific date without having to bill anyone or wait for procrastinators to renew manually. There's also the "easier to ask forgiveness later than ask for permission" factor -- why put a subscriber in a position of thinking "Do I really like Real Secrets enough to pay another $144 for another year?" when they can just quietly take the auto-renewal money and leave the customer to think "Okay, well, I guess I'll stick with it since I've already paid."  There's a reason so many businesses offer automatic payment options: It's good for business. It promotes a steadier, more predicable stream of revenue. Not many businesses make auto-payment a requirement of continued service...but Real Secrets does.
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I do want to ask what is wrong with making money? Nothing at all. I don't think anyone has said there's anything wrong with it. (In fact, I said "there's nothing wrong with that" in the post you just quoted. ) I have no objection to the fact that they're trying to make money. I have no objection to anything they do to try and maximize their revenues. I just find any suggestion that Real Secrets is NOT trying to do those things to be...unrealistic.
"A great magician has said of his profession that its practitioners '… must pound and rack their brains to make the least learning go in, but quarrelling always comes very naturally to them.'” -- Susanna Clarke, Jonathan Strange and Mr Norrell
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DelMagic Special user Delaware 760 Posts
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"If you want what we're selling, you have to agree to let us automatically charge you another $144 next year." This is simply wrong. They don't get to automatically charge everyone, only those who agree to let it go or forget to turn it off. Those that don't want to have the charge made can turn it off. And those that forget to turn it off can cancel anytime they want. Quote:
So, in about a year's time, they'll be able to look at the number of subscribers they still have, do a little simple math, and know they've got a guaranteed injection of X amount of dollars coming soon. No, there is no "guaranteed" injection as has been explained multiple times in this thread. People can turn it off and cancel at any time. If it is a lousy program, the renewal money will be slim to none. Quote:
That doesn't speak of an operation that's not in it primarily for the money. Neither does having people pay for a year's worth of product in advance, sight-unseen. Since your other two premises don't hold up, neither does this conclusion. In general, I think it is common for subscriptions to paid for a year in advance for material that is sight-unseen. Quote:
Of course the Real Secrets people are in it primarily for the money. You simply don't know this. It is your assumption. No one claims this is non-profit or a great charity but claiming money is their PRIMARY motivation is overstating it based on what we know at this time. Quote:
Telling yourself Real Secrets isn't in it primarily for the money is as bad as telling yourself they're hiding their identities to make things more fun for the customer. I'm not worried. |
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writeall Special user Midland, Michigan 930 Posts
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I have seen a lot of promises in this thread about reviews after some material has been recieved. That won't help. Good or bad, whatever comes in the mail will be something others can't buy anyhow.
"I got this really wonderful thing from Real Secrets." "Really? What was it?" "Can't say, but it's wonderful, top drawer!" "How can I get it?" "You can't. It's gone for good." "Can you show me a video of it so I can see the effect?" "Sorry, no." "Oh. Well in that case, let me tell you about this really great meal I had in Tibet before the Chinese got there..." |
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Zombie Magic Inner circle I went out for a beer and now have 8733 Posts
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Not likely reviews of products will happen ( it will be deleted if it happens ). What will spread through the community quickly is whether it was/is worth it.
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writeall Special user Midland, Michigan 930 Posts
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On 2012-03-12 22:01, Zombie Magic wrote: But even that doesn't help much. Unless you believe that "was worth it" is the same as "will continue to be worth it." It's the predicting the future part that mirrors exactly where we are now. I should 'fess up. I'd sign on if money weren't tight. As it is, this whole kerfuffle has led me to revisit my magic library where I'm discovering lots of "new to me" stuff. And I'm going to buy a gaffed coin I've been lusting after instead. Still, I feel the pull just as hard as anyone and will be jealous. |
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MagicBrent Inner circle 2709 Posts
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Did they say if there was gonna be a special real secrets forum to discuss it like Paul Harris had for his True Astonishments set?
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MaxfieldsMagic Inner circle Instead of practicing, I made 3007 Posts
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Why does it matter what their "motives" are? If they're in it 100% for the money (which I do not believe, because if someone is that driven by money, they'll probably be managing a hedge fund or some other occupation that makes 10,000% more than magic), then so what? Good for them. All that matters is whether people feel they got their money's worth. And since none of us will know that until April at the soonest, everything until then is just p***ing in the wind.
Now appearing nightly in my basement.
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sirbrad Inner circle PA 2042 Posts
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On 2012-03-11 22:37, Xiqual wrote: That may sound great for "you" but others would simply be annoyed and not take your word for it. In fact I would not even bother reading a review telling me how great "something" was with no evidence, or description of the items. That is almost as bad as buying "something" that I do not even know what it is. That is just silly. So any reviews will be pointless, and non one will care anyway because you can't prove how bad or good the item is. Any gleaming review would just be nothing more than an attempt to showcase that you have something others don't. But if they can't see it, or know what it is the review is not credible and not worth reading. Also Real Secrets is not reading all these posts, they only check their paypal account often.
The great trouble with magicians is the fact that they believe when they have bought a certain trick or piece of apparatus, and know the method or procedure, that they are full-fledged mystifiers. -- Harry Houdini
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Michael Jay Regular user Toledo, Ohio 180 Posts
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On 2012-03-12 21:40, writeall wrote: Not necessarily so. Even if the product is fantastic, there will be those who simply are not happy with it. They will cancel their membership and, more than likely, they will be vocal about what they received. They will also be prepared to sell the material that they received and, since they no longer are associated with it, they will happily tell everyone what it is that they are buying. Furthermore, the internet is filled with people who have names that keep their real identity a secret. Some of them will buy into this with no other intention than exposing what they get. This is what feeds their ego (like that sirbrad chap that doesn't know how to spell the word, "reek," when it is related to smell). Mike. |
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Michael Jay Regular user Toledo, Ohio 180 Posts
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By the by (and sorry for the double post) has anyone considered the possibility of buying this and simply not opening the package when it comes? While at this very moment that doesn't mean anything, 20 years from now it could be a real collector's item.
Just a thought. Mike. |
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sirbrad Inner circle PA 2042 Posts
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On 2012-03-12 22:06, writeall wrote: That is the problem with this shady business tactic. The reviews will be as invisible as the product and the company who sells it. And if anyone says "it is worth it!" who is really going to care? You can't buy back issues anyway. It would be pointles to even read any type of so-called review. This whole shady marketing tactic is to get as many people to pay NOW and hoping forget about the recurring payment and KEEP paying next year. I still can't believe how many are falling for this. I would not order based on the recurring payment being forced on me alone even if I knew what I was getting. So no, that mathod does not make them more money in my case, it makes them ZERO from me.
The great trouble with magicians is the fact that they believe when they have bought a certain trick or piece of apparatus, and know the method or procedure, that they are full-fledged mystifiers. -- Harry Houdini
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Posted: Mar 12, 2012 05:04 am 
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