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FrenchDrop Inner circle I can name that tune in 1647 Posts 
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On 2012-03-29 08:21, Mr. Mystoffelees wrote: What standards would they use to qualify you, and how would they evaluate you when all they know about you is your name, E-mail address, and mailing address? I think the concept of applications and acceptance was introduced either as an out in case they got more subscribers than they could handle -- or just as a way of making the whole thing feel more like an exclusive club. More and more, I think it's the latter. I'd be very surprised if anyone's rejected for any reason other than failure to comply with the automatic renewal thing (which, I agree with Bill, contradicts their ad copy about a "one-time" fee). If anyone is rejected for some other reason, I'd be interested in knowing the reason Real Secrets gives.
"A great magician has said of his profession that its practitioners '… must pound and rack their brains to make the least learning go in, but quarrelling always comes very naturally to them.'” -- Susanna Clarke, Jonathan Strange and Mr Norrell
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ralphs007 Inner circle 1087 Posts
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On 2012-03-29 08:21, Mr. Mystoffelees wrote: So much for secrets ! He'll probably use this stuff on his next special. ;0)
"You can easily judge the character of a man by how he treats those who can do nothing for him".
James D. Miles |
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Magicsquared Inner circle 1262 Posts
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On 2012-03-29 09:53, FrenchDrop wrote: Their ad copy doesn't say a "one time fee," it says, "a one-time annual fee." Annual means: per year. It's a one time per-year fee. I'm not exactly sure where the confusion is there. I can understand that people don't like that they have to have the automatic renewal on, but I can also understand that it's MUCH easier to operate a subscription service where people are either IN or OUT. People are either on the list, or they're off the list. Not, "this person is on the list for 3 more months, this person is on the list for 6 more months, this person is on for another year." Real Secrets doesn't have to maintain a list of whose subscription is about to lapse, then manually remove them, send them renewal notices, etc. Simplifying things this way should make it much easier to run, and is likely part of the reason why they can afford to charge just $12 a month. (I'm not discounting the fact that having automatic renewals mandatory is an easy way to keep satisfied customers on board --I'm sure that plays into it too.) |
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FrenchDrop Inner circle I can name that tune in 1647 Posts
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On 2012-03-29 12:12, Magicsquared wrote: So...it's a one-time, recurring fee? Are you sure you can't see how that might be confusing? 
When I pay my phone bill online, I make a point of looking for the phrase "one-time payment" so I know I'm not unwittingly agreeing to an automatic withdrawal plan. I check for that phrase every month, and I don't click "Submit" until I see it, because I know corporations like to slip changes by their customers. I like to be in control of when and how money leaves my hands; I completely understand why Bill, Richard Kaufman, and others tried turning off the automatic renewal option for Real Secrets. RS has every right to require automatic renewal as a condition of membership, but I understand why Bill thinks RS's wording is misleading -- because there's no such thing as a one-time, recurring payment! It's either one or the other. Quote:
I can understand that people don't like that they have to have the automatic renewal on, but I can also understand that it's MUCH easier to operate a subscription service where people are either IN or OUT. No magazine I've ever subscribed to has had a problem operating without automatic renewal. Most of them offer it as an option these days, but I haven't encountered one that requires it and will cancel your subscription if you don't agree to it a year in advance.
"A great magician has said of his profession that its practitioners '… must pound and rack their brains to make the least learning go in, but quarrelling always comes very naturally to them.'” -- Susanna Clarke, Jonathan Strange and Mr Norrell
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Magicsquared Inner circle 1262 Posts
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On 2012-03-29 12:19, FrenchDrop wrote: They don't say a "one-time, recurring" fee. They say it's a one-time annual payment. You seem intent on leaving the annual part out. If I say, "the summer olympics happen once every four-years." And you say, "Wait... so they happen once AND every four years? how can that be?" we'd think you were a knucklehead. So yes, I do have a hard time seeing how that's confusing, despite your well placed .
Just out of curiosity, how else would you describe a fee that you pay in one-installment per-year? Quote:
And my whole point was that this is NOT a large, magazine subscription service. It seems to be a small operation that is trying to operate in the simplest way possible. And I can understand that that might be a "You're in until you say you want out, and then you're out" system. They've cut out the idea of back issues, renewal notices, subscription lapses, etc. And they've left it in our hands. When you want out, say you want out. And it's done. This hardly seems like some diabolical scheme. I'm not discounting that some people see it as inconvenient -- but I see it as a company trying to run as efficiently as possible. And I'm willing to give them the benefit of the doubt until they give me a reason to believe otherwise. |
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FrenchDrop Inner circle I can name that tune in 1647 Posts
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On 2012-03-29 12:50, Magicsquared wrote: Are you suggesting that an annual fee is not a recurring fee? I want to be sure I understand the hair you're splitting here. 
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If I say, "the summer olympics happen once every four-years." And you say, "Wait... so they happen once AND every four years? how can that be?" we'd think you were a knucklehead. See, now you're trying to use different language to shore up your argument -- something you just accused me of doing! But Real Secrets uses the specific phrase "one-time." Now, if you said to me "The Summer Olympics are a one-time event that happens every four years," then you'd have an analogy. And if you thought I was a knucklehead for saying "Wait...is it a one-time event, or does it happen every four years?" -- well, that would be pretty unreasonable of you. Quote:
Just out of curiosity, how else would you describe a fee that you pay in one-installment per-year? Seriously? Is it really that difficult? How about "$144 per year" instead of "one-time annual fee of $144"? It's not complicated -- as long as your goal is to clearly and accurately convey what a subscriber is agreeing to. Quote:
And my whole point was that this is NOT a large, magazine subscription service. Neither are some of the magazines I've subscribed to. Ever heard of Locus? For that matter, just how big do you think Genii and Magic Magazine are? I've never said it was a "diabolical scheme."  I'm just saying I agree the "one-time" wording is misleading -- unintentionally or otherwise -- and that I understand people who balk at the automatic renewal requirement.
"A great magician has said of his profession that its practitioners '… must pound and rack their brains to make the least learning go in, but quarrelling always comes very naturally to them.'” -- Susanna Clarke, Jonathan Strange and Mr Norrell
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Atom3339 Inner circle Spokane, WA 3242 Posts
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Magicsquared, Whether large or small, it appears RS is running its business in a very confusing manner.
TH
Occupy Your Dream |
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Magicsquared Inner circle 1262 Posts
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I don't know if you're willfully misunderstanding or not. Real Secrets did NOT use the phrase "one-time." They used the phrase "one-time annual." There is no comma there. YOU'RE making these into two separate clauses, just like you had to mangle my olympics example into two separate clauses to make it fit your point. And yes if you make them into two separate clauses then maybe it's confusing. But YOU'RE the one who has done that, not Real Secrets. So if you're confused then you have yourself to blame. |
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Magicsquared Inner circle 1262 Posts
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Do you seriously not see the difference between those two? If not, then we're at an impasse. To be more explicit, both the platinum and the gold memberships are "$144 per year" but only the platinum membership is done in a "one time annual fee of $144." Do you want to give it another shot? |
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FrenchDrop Inner circle I can name that tune in 1647 Posts
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On 2012-03-29 13:24, Magicsquared wrote: What on earth are you on about?  Of course I see the difference between the two. That's why I suggested the former over the latter. What part of the paragraph you quoted led you to conclude I thought the two phrases were in any way equivalent? The difference between the two is that the former is very straightforward and accurate, and the latter is self-contradictory and potentially misleading.
"A great magician has said of his profession that its practitioners '… must pound and rack their brains to make the least learning go in, but quarrelling always comes very naturally to them.'” -- Susanna Clarke, Jonathan Strange and Mr Norrell
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Magicsquared Inner circle 1262 Posts
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Ha, it looks like I really DID need to edit that response to make it more explicit. Somehow I knew I would.
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FrenchDrop Inner circle I can name that tune in 1647 Posts
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On 2012-03-29 13:30, Magicsquared wrote: Yes. I'll give you credit for at least occasionally understanding when something is not clear.
To address what you added in your edit: Quote:
To be more explicit, both the platinum and the gold memberships are "$144 per year" but only the platinum membership is done in a "one time annual fee of $144." You're playing with the language again. The Real Secrets ad doesn't say the Gold Membership is "$144 per year." It says "Only $36 for 3-month installment." If RS had described Gold Membership as "Only $36 for 3-month installment" and Platinum as "Only $144 per year," would that really have confused you?
"A great magician has said of his profession that its practitioners '… must pound and rack their brains to make the least learning go in, but quarrelling always comes very naturally to them.'” -- Susanna Clarke, Jonathan Strange and Mr Norrell
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Magicsquared Inner circle 1262 Posts
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On 2012-03-29 13:37, FrenchDrop wrote: Yes, THAT would confuse me. If someone said, "Your cable bill is $10 per month. Or you can have the ALL-STAR Cable Package for $120 per year." I would say, "But wait... $10 per month IS $120 per year." And then they'd clarify by saying, "yes, but the All-Star package is a one-time annual payment of $120." Then I'd say "Oooohh... okay, I get it." And I'd give them my $120 and understand that they're going to charge me another $120 next year. For me, "one-time annual payment" IS a very clear and explicit way of saying something. It means a payment you make one-time per year. It does not seem counter-intuitive or contradictory. It gives me much more information than saying something costs this much "per year" which doesn't let you know the amount or frequency of the payments. My point was just that the only way to see the language as misleading is if you decide to put a comma in a phrase that they don't put a comma in. I don't know how RS could plan for that contingency. I'm done arguing about it. To me it's clear, to you it's not. No big deal. I'm about to go make a one-time weekly payment for some buffalo shrimp at hooters. Later. |
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sevenup Regular user South Carolina 180 Posts
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But why say "one-time" with "annual" together in the first place? It is much clearer to simply say annual by itself which is really what they were trying to convey. The one-time phrase wasn't used by itself but if it was means something totally different; where as annual means annual no matter how you look at it. From a marketing standpoint the "one-time annual fee" phrase makes it sound like there is only one payment necessary but RS has made it brutaly clear after the fact that this is not the case by canceling membership if you weren't in for the next payment also. It would have been much clearer to state "annual payment of $144 with automatic renewal" since that is exactly what they want.
Anyways this is finally getting closer to shipping out. We're just a few days away.
Pick a card, any card at all. Just don't pick a RED spade.
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Magicsquared Inner circle 1262 Posts
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On 2012-03-29 14:01, sevenup wrote: I disagree. Both the gold and the platinum packages have annual payments of $144. With the platinum, however, it's a one-time annual payment. Perhaps I'm used to technical writing so this seems painfully clear to me when it's confusing to others. I don't know. It's definitely clear to everyone now one way or the other. My shrimp are waiting. |
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FrenchDrop Inner circle I can name that tune in 1647 Posts
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On 2012-03-29 13:59, Magicsquared wrote: Okay. If that really would confuse you, then you were right in the first place: We are at an impasse.
"A great magician has said of his profession that its practitioners '… must pound and rack their brains to make the least learning go in, but quarrelling always comes very naturally to them.'” -- Susanna Clarke, Jonathan Strange and Mr Norrell
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BatsMagic Inner circle New York 1052 Posts
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Guys- no reason to get in a tizzy over this!
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FrenchDrop Inner circle I can name that tune in 1647 Posts
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I'm totally in a tizzy! I'm thoroughly tizzified!
"A great magician has said of his profession that its practitioners '… must pound and rack their brains to make the least learning go in, but quarrelling always comes very naturally to them.'” -- Susanna Clarke, Jonathan Strange and Mr Norrell
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todsky Inner circle www.magicstore.ca 2370 Posts
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Much ado about nothing, at least for a few more days. Then, Much ado about something (we hope).
Todsky's Magic Shop: over 15,000 tricks, books, DVD s and Card decks. www.magicstore.ca
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Tom Jorgenson Inner circle LOOSE ANGLES, CALIFORNIA 4451 Posts
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Right when we have something to talk about, we shut up.
We dance an invisible dance to music they cannot hear.
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Posted: Mar 29, 2012 01:53 pm 
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