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genemccarthy New user 82 Posts |
Endlessly, on these sites, a topic of interest begins and the turns into volumes of 'who should get credit' or 'patent issues' and the topic is lost amongst the rubble.
Possibly a thread could be set up for the wanna-be solicitors and attorneys that rise up to protect someone's rights. gene.... |
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Jazz Veteran user Mexico City 377 Posts |
With so many users on this forum, there should be some that have legal experience. Maybe even fulltime lawyers or students of law. It would be interesting to hear their comments on this matter.
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DerekMerdinyan Inner circle 1030 Posts |
I have never seen Fearson's Laser Illusion. Is there a place I could see it online?
Derek Merdinyan |
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muzicman Special user LaCenter, Wa 989 Posts |
It's not the best video and there is NO sound, but you can see the illusion as it was shown on TV for his TOF special HERE
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The Mac Inner circle 1982 Posts |
This is an interesting side topic.(hi dale!)
If Muzicman was to invent a new trick - and I at the same invented the trick AFTER him WITHOUT him discolsing the method to me - am I crossing a boundary legally? I mean if its "no" - then I should be able to perform "my" version of Laser (with my own music and styling/presentation) without a high powered lawyer hunting me down. I know there's Ethics (thats a different kettle of fish) And since DC doesn't disclose any of his illusions ( maybe a few patents here and there) doesn't it then stand to reason that they can can be performed by anyone? I know about ethics being a factor- but purely from a legal standpoint? can someone clarify this for me? |
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troller Loyal user 276 Posts |
I too agree that this is one of the most exciting and amazing feats of magic I have ever seen. I think Steve Fearson has got to be a genius.
I saw the Fearson Japan TV version and it looks as though the same pants and boots are being used by Copperfield!!! I am not kidding... next time compare. I think DC version is so polished and if you go to DC website, skip the intro, and then click on the Tour button, and see him standing there holding onto his legs. And he is very disconnected to his legs. Amazing. I remember seeing in the old days a clip of a magician performing a trick. There were other magicians there and one of them actually performed the same trick but using his own method, so it seemed. Then end result was the same though. No one fussed over who invented it and I kind of got the sense that what I was witnessing is a bunch of magicians showing off their talents. I think it was Vernon and some other fellow magicians. Everyone seemed rather happy that the other magician could perform it and I was happy I got to see two performances from two different magicians. Today's world is so full of lawsuits and money hungry attitudes. Today's mentality is similar to: It ok to reveal a trick to someone as long as a large sum of money changes hands. There is more of an emphasis on selling the tricks to people rather than selling the magicians performance. Am I the only one that thinks it's this way? Sorry but I got to put my two cents in on a point... The Balducci levitation is now so familiar to everyone that their kid sister is performing it. That's bad for magic. With all the other levitations on the market, how is anyone going to sue someone that they are ripping off your version of the trick without first revealing all the version and comparing? For DC to sue you, first he would have to prove that you are stealing his version. And that would mean that in the courts you would have to reveal your version and then the cats out of the bag... now it's public domain unless the judge puts a publication ban on the suite. I guess this would do two things, DC would stop performing it due to it's public awareness as in the Balducci incident, and then perhaps this would prevent DC from doing such a purchase of a trick from another magician in the future if there was a trick that warrants a buy as in this case, the Laser Illusion. Not good for magic. But only time will tell whether the Internet and all it's trading of material will devastate the magic scene. The music industry is no longer making money on selling songs, but concerts still do exist. And they are charging an arm and a leg to get in. So the performance of the material is still the most important part of the any art. Sure your brother and sister can do it, but not as good as (_____________) <<<< insert your favourite magicians name here! |
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joecool5192 New user 3 Posts |
Hi everyone. Here's a clip of David Copperfeild performing Laser
http://media.putfile.com/David--Copperfi......Illusion Its cool at the bottom of the screen there is different screen size Joe- |
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Laszlo Csizmadi Special user From Hell 868 Posts |
Old times wasn't so many magicians as today. Only a couple magicians did the same illusions.(box illusions, sawing in half, vanishing, etc) They sold the illusions or performance rights for each other. Secrets were more safe in the magic world and old timers respected each other. But today is much harder to get ahead because of so many magicians and so many big names. All you can do invent new illusions, new styles, new props then if you are talented you will get ahead. Copying isn't the future. Good thing you mentioned about songs. Try to copy Rod Stewart. I'm pretty sure it is a big difference if you sing a Rod Stewart song or Rod does. I wanna see what would the people pay when you sing. (tomatoes, eggs just kidding) Because the music indrustry loosing money it doesn't mean magic should too actually magic should improve and make more money for magicians not for the dealers.
About the Laser. A lot of magician knows how its done and they don't perform it or who does doing different way. Why? Because most of the magicians try to keep the tradicion, they know what is Ethics and they respecting other people things. I don't think David would sue someone who doing the Laser. What will he do if hundreds of guy perform on the street? Will he sue all of them? No. But sooner or later kids will doing in the school as they doing Balducci and this beautyful illusion would gone. No one is bigger or better who is copying illusions. This is not a card trick. Card trick you can buy thousand but there is only one Laser. Magicians will always remember for that Fearson created and David performed the Laser. |
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KidMagic Regular user Bradford 183 Posts |
If you were to build this illusion just for fun and play around with it in your own home (not using it in any shows) would that still not be against the sopy rights? Because that looks like it would be a lot of fun to play with infront of a mirror.
PS : If you search "laser illusion" on youtube there is atleast 20 different people perfoming this trick and a few that easily give away the secret by accident (not enough practice). And even one that gives it away on purpose!!! |
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Silvio Solaris Inner circle Xtreme Magic 1110 Posts |
Quote:
On 2008-02-04 21:53, KidMagic wrote: Do you think those guys are ethical doing that? Only the one who's got ethics will move up. The ones that don't will sooner or later succumb, because they know that they did wrong. Therefore they eliminate themselves for not to harm others anymore. That's the law of the universe where ethics is the key to success.
Magical Wishes
Silvio Solaris 'Is all that we see and seem but a dream within a dream?' E.A.Poe |
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landon2006 New user 1 Post |
Truthteller said:
Quote:
Ideas can be protected through IP laws. Songs are ideas. Plays are ideas. TV and film productions are ideas. So are magic tricks. You cannot protect "Ideas". "Ideas" are not copyrightable, at least in America. If I wanted to, I could write a book about a boy wizard named Larry that goes off to a wizard school and meets up with 2 other companions, James and Lilly. There would also be a headmaster of the school with a long white beard and pointy hat, but lets call him "Merlin". Is this story sounding familiar? If you guest "Harry Potter", your right. would I be breaking any laws by writing this book I described? No. You cannot copyright or patent an idea. The idea of laser illusion is not a protected concept. You can go to Google and type in "Copyright ideas" or "Patent Ideas" and read more on the subject from there. While I'm just an entry level magician, I have been involved in the Theatre would for several years. When we did out production of the musical "Peter Pan", I personally built the tracked flying systems for the actors. If what you where saying was true, since Peter Foy buildt and patented the original tracking idea, no one else would be able to fly actors via track design of their own method. Before you make claims like "You can protect Ideas", please read more of the subject. I will also quote a statement from IPwatchdog.com: "Unfortunately, despite what you may have heard, there is absolutely no way to protect an idea through intellectual property law. Copyright protects expression and patent law protects inventions, and neither protect ideas. In both cases the idea is the first critical step, but without some identifiable embodiment of the idea there can be no intellectual property protection." What this means is that you can patent the design of your idea, but not the idea itself. True, you cannot build your illusion exactly as the one controlled by David Copperfield. That is not to say you cannot create another invention just like, but by different means. This is an "Idea", and not a way of implementing the idea. Also, you say that you cannot locate any design illustrations to the David Copperfield version huh? Yes you can.. If it was patented, then the design and illustrations was sent to the patent office. Anyone wishing to research a patent can do so, and it is suggested that you do so that you don't rip off another persons deign (note I didn't say "idea"). You can believe me or not, but you also might like to know that I'm a fourth year law student with great knowledge in Intellectual property laws. Your merits that you can "Protect an Idea via Intellectual property laws" is bogus. I would also like to through in an argument on your idea that "Plays are ideas, songs are ideas". True, songs are ideas. Plays are ideas. That does not mean that because I have the idea to create a play off of the book "Secret Garden (Public domain)", that no one else can create a play off of that book. In fact, if you look you will find more than 8 different plays written from that book, most of which are pretty much the same. Song's are ideas, yes, but because Eminem wrote a song about his childhood, does not mean that another rapper with a similar childhood could not write a song about it. Do your homework before making false statements. I don't mean to sound rude, but I don't like it when people claim legal knowledge they don't have. If you think I'm wrong, please point me to the evidence that you can patent or copyright an Idea... Landon Parks, Armature Magician, Law Student, President of Firestorm Theatrical Entertainment. P.s.) For the fun of it, here is a quote from "Entrepreneur.com": "The first thing to recognize is that intangible ideas cannot, in general, be protected — not by using traditional copyright or trademark (or other) forms of intellectual property protection. " |
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truthteller Inner circle 2584 Posts |
Landon,
Yes, when taken as it is, you are correct. That statement however is taken a touch out of context (when one considers all the posts made leading up to it) and was made (if I recall) to counter the notion that any "idea" is open for theft and afforded no protection because it is "an idea". But yes, as stated it is incorrect. It should have been written to state that specific manifestations of ideas can be protected by IP laws. However, even then, the creator is given a bit of leeway. For example, I cannot transcribe or arrange someone else's copyrighted piece of music without permission. Even if it is for brand new instrumentation or even altered to a degree. Your secret garden example is correct, but misleading. First, one cannot make a play out of just any book. Even if changed considerably, if that work is protected, you will get sued and you will loose. Likewise, simply because someone makes a play out of a book - that does not give you the right to copy THEIR play. What we see in discussions of this sort is the inevitable rationalization of theft through bad logic. Many magicians would try to argue that because YOUR play is based on someone else's work, they can copy YOUR play. I know - it's retarded. But spend some more time around here, you'll see that it happens. Plays (which are ideas) are protected. You cannot mount a performance of most copyrighted works without obtaining and paying for permissions. Even if you want to change it - or do it in a new way. While copyright applies to the actual script (you can't literally make a copy), there are also agreements and laws in place that govern the use of those words - just because you have the script does not grant you the right to put on the play (in all instances.) Your example about Potter is also wrong. In fact, Rowling took a publisher to court over just that issue and won. While you may hope that the "idea" of a wizard's school and similar character names would allow you the freedom to tell your own tale, it's just not the case. Now, how close does something have to be in order to cross that line? I don't know. The concept of a wizard school is fair game (or seems to be based on current shows), but clearly there is a line and if you get too close you will get stung. But, when it comes to magic, it most often boils down to the simplest of issues: Someone sees someone else do something that's cool and they want to copy it. Legally there may be little we can do about it. Ethically, we can hope the community will stand up for what's right. But artistically, that copyist is aesthetically bankrupt and will hopefully meet with the failure they deserve. Brad Henderson |
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Matt Graves Special user Huntsville, Alabama (USA) 504 Posts |
Just watched the illusion again after several years, and it's even more amazing to me that he did this show apparently surrounded. Not only the "Laser" illusion but several others in the program would seem hazardous, if not impossible, to do that way. This sends my mind spinning in a few different directions . . . hmmmmmmmm . . .
As far as who owns the rights to what . . . that's why I generally stick to stuff like the Egg Bag. Somebody tried to copyright that, they'd just get laughed at. It's been around for ages. And really, sawing a person in half has been around for ages. This just happens to be a lot cooler than the traditional buzzsaw/woman-in-a-box. But it's essentially the same effect. So I find it silly indeed to have actual legal restraints on it. I don't think magicians copying another magician hurt that other magician at all . . . I think they hurt their own performance . . . by doing a carbon copy when they could take the basic idea and do something creative of their own. No need to sue them . . . just a little "tsk tsk" should suffice. Think of all the "cover bands" that are out there for big rock bands like Metallica or KISS . . . or Elvis Presley or Garth Brooks impersonators . . . same type of thing. It's not my type of thing, but that doesn't mean I think it should be illegal. Much ado about nothing. But still an awesome version of "sawing in half"! |
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MagicErik Loyal user Sneek, Netherlands 284 Posts |
I still strongely believe that there should be a website on which everyone can place pictures or video's of their own illusions. Everything that you invented. Next to these pictures only need to be the name and a description of the effect. And you can tell if you want to keep this one for yourself or you can tell where people can buy this illusion. One website where you can find these answers. It makes the lives of illusionists a lot easier.
EVI |
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