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The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » Penny for your thoughts » » Fake Tarot and Palm Readers - Interesting worldwide (3 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

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visionquest
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This is all too much for me. I am now thoroughly lost in confusion. Perhaps Bev could explain what he is getting at?
Amirá
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Words are useless. Do whatever you want. Do it well.

Best
Pablo
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kinesis
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Quote:
On 2012-03-18 17:53, visionquest wrote:
I am more confused than ever. I have done thousands of tarot readings. The very basis of the tarot is to use your psychic ability, or if you wish to use a milder word, intution. Or gut feeling if you want to make it even milder. It cannot be done any other way unless you are just reciting a story that you think applies to the client. In other words sheer guesswork. That would be a very ineffective way of using the tarot.

Perhaps my definition of "psychic" differs from everyone elses. I thought I had explained my viewpoint on another very long thread. It seems it was a waste of time typing it all out.

You can read palms without psychic ability since you can just say what the lines mean. That isn't how it works with the tarot.


When I read Tarot, I take the meaning of the cards to which I apply my intuition, imagination and life experience to give my reading appropriate to the sitter. That doesn't make me psychic.
Reality is merely an illusion, albeit a very persistent one - Albert Einstein






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Dr Spektor
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Using tarot cards for readings does not require any psychic ability whatsover - I do it all the time. My work with people is highly useful to them, entertaining, and enlightening - so the people I do it with tell me.

To be able to use the tarot equals being psychic is faulty logic. Being psychic doesn't mean one can read tarot cards either.

Reading palms is the same if you want. Depends how you want to use a so called oracle or not.

However, logic left the building long ago on this thread.

LOGIC FAULTY FAULTY NONSEQ... MUST SELF DESTRUCT FAULTY FAULTY FAULTY....
"They are lean and athirst!!!!"
visionquest
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Perhaps "intuition, imagination and life experience" is another expression for "psychic" and we are arguing semantics here. Still, I wonder just how good a tarot reading can be without psychic ability. Still, I shall reserve judgement until I hear one, which of course is unlikely since readings are supposed to be private. All I can tell you is the way I read the Tarot. The cards themselves trigger off the ability. It is what I call the "psychic mirror" The cards are the mirror and they reflect the subconcious and concious mind of the client back to me. It is not a clear mirror. It is like looking through frosted glass. You can see glimpses but you can't see everything. I would suggest getting a book on the Tarot called "Tarotmania" by Jan Woudhuysen which will explain the concept. Although the book is probably out of print by now I believe you can read it free online.

The other book I would thoroughly recommend in line with this work is not a metaphysical or divination book. It is called "On Becoming a Counsellor" by Eugene Kennedy. People do not come to you for a reading for "entertainment" or "fun". They come when things are not quite right in their lives. This book will help you deal with this and will help you to become a counsellor to yourself as you need to be doing this work. It was originally written for non-professional counsellors such as social workers, clergy etc; I will admit the author would probably be quite surprised that his work is recommended for psychis (or if you prefer, tarot card readers).
Slim King
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Psychic.....Nonphysical of or pertaining to the mind or spirit apparently able to respond to nonphysical influences. A person able to act as a medium.

SO IT IS A MENTAL THING....Mediums may be psychic but not all psychics are mediums.

Seems this is well within the scope of a Mentalist.. just like Corrinda,Mann, Annamann and the founders of mentalism claimed!
THE MAN THE SKEPTICS REFUSE TO TEST FOR ONE MILLION DOLLARS.. The Worlds Foremost Authority on Houdini's Life after Death.....
visionquest
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I am getting a distinct impression here that most of you are talking about short "entertainment" readings rather than serious sessions. Do any of you do serious 30 to 60 minute readings? I really don't consider 10 minutes full of vague "entertaining" waffle to be a serious reading. The psychic business has utterly nothing to do with the entertainment business except in those cases where you are booked at an event to just sit there and do brief readings. There is nothing wrong with this if that is all you are capable of or all you want to do but it really isn't advanced work even though it pays well.

I am not sure that magicians and mentalists know very much about this stuff although they talk about it a lot. Some of the literature I have seen on the subject is utter rubbish except that of Richard Webster. Let me emphasise that I am not referring to the work of anyone on this thread that has produced material. I am sure it is very good but I cannot comment or review it simply because I have not seen any of it. I am just referring to the material I have seen and I can only say it is utterly abysmal even though highly recommended by the blind leading the blind.

It is difficult to judge the quality of other people's readings because one generally doesn't see much of it since the reading is for the client. However, on the few occasions I have heard tapes or been able to experience a reading by a magician/mentalist it has been very ineffective indeed. They seem to regard it as something which is not quite real and almost a trick. This does not make for effective, compassionate, sensitive, genuine metaphysical sessions. You are not there to "amaze" people. You are there to "help" them. Readers who come from a magic or mentalism background seem to lean towards the former rather than the latter.

If I can give any advice on how to do this properly I will if anyone asks. I don't think they will though. Still, the sharp ones might. If they do I will respond. If they don't I think my part in this discussion will cease. No point trying to educate the unwilling.
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Hey visionquest, my wife and I do one hour reading sessions regularly, we are involved in counseling too, and we use prayer as a means for our readings. I would like to know if my question about prayer is going to be answered or do you pick and choose whose questions you choose to answer?

I will not ever divulge how my wife goes about her readings as it is and will always remain her way, but if you are going to be very giving on this matter, which you, outwardly seeming at least, seem to be hinting towards, I would be keen to hear your answer to my question Smile

Kam
If I speak forth, many a mind will shatter,
And if I write, many a pen will break.
.....and when I consider my own self, lo, I find it coarser than clay!
visionquest
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If a question is a sincere one and not one with a negative agenda behind it then I am happy to answer it. I will indeed reply to it if I see enough interest from others who do readings. If people who do not do readings ask then I am reluctant to answer. This particular question makes me nervous because it could end up in a big religious discussion and the resulting dissension which I do not consider helpful. As I have already stated my technique has nothing to do with religion and can indeed be used by atheists who will probably do a better job with it. In any event I don't think truly religious people are going to want to do readings in the first place and if they do I wonder about the quality of those readings as I think they may well be unduly influenced by the belief system in question. I believe religion (as opposed to prayer) should be kept out of psychic readings.

Incidentally, since you come from Perth do you know Ray Haddad?
kambiz
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Yes I know Ray although I haven't seen him for some time

Kam
If I speak forth, many a mind will shatter,
And if I write, many a pen will break.
.....and when I consider my own self, lo, I find it coarser than clay!
Slim King
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Quote:
On 2012-03-18 18:04, Amirá wrote:
Words are useless. Do whatever you want. Do it well.

Best

I Really like that!
THE MAN THE SKEPTICS REFUSE TO TEST FOR ONE MILLION DOLLARS.. The Worlds Foremost Authority on Houdini's Life after Death.....
Slim King
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Quote:
On 2012-03-18 12:12, LobowolfXXX wrote:
Quote:
On 2012-03-18 08:18, IAIN wrote:
How many goes do they get?


2001 ought to do it.
THE MAN THE SKEPTICS REFUSE TO TEST FOR ONE MILLION DOLLARS.. The Worlds Foremost Authority on Houdini's Life after Death.....
Slim King
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So I should be able to do this again around 4197? If I keep trying to duplicate it ... right? Superbowl 2,247! Smile
THE MAN THE SKEPTICS REFUSE TO TEST FOR ONE MILLION DOLLARS.. The Worlds Foremost Authority on Houdini's Life after Death.....
mota
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VQ, I would like to hear more about how you do readings.
VernonOnCoins
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I pulled three cards regarding this thread:

two of swords
ten of coins
ace of wands

A conflict between two people quickly turns to profit and a new creative idea is born
visionquest
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Mota is a very experienced and intuitive reader who will know what I am trying to get at. I am not sure anyone else will. I may well be persuaded to explain this prayer matter to people of that ilk. I shall bide my time to see if there is any more kindred interest. I just don't want the holy rollers to come out of the woodwork and let the whole thing degenerate into a distraction which will obscure what I am trying to say .
visionquest
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I now feel inclined to attempt to explain what I am getting at. I shall have to take a deep breath in order to do so. It is a trifle complicated. Again I regard this as a technique rather than as a religious matter which it certainly isn't. It will seem a little contradictory but so be it. I am referring only to psychic readings although it may or may not have applications elsewhere. One thing is for sure. You won't see this mentioned in any material produced on readings for magicians or mentalists and yet it is a very powerful technique which will improve your readings immensely. It is more applicable for those of you who do longer readings and not the so called brief "entertainment" sessions.

The key is compassion. That is compassion for your clients. They are often in a vulnerable state when they come to see you. And it is imperative that you approach them in a compassionate and sensitive frame of mind. Prayer is an ideal way to do this. It must be virtually impossible to see them as as "marks" or simply someone who is just there to give you money if you pray for them. I do it a few moments before they come in to see me and when they remove the selected cards for the spread of the tarot. With regard to the latter, I say nothing and it creates an atmosphere of silence for a very short time and this helps develop a spiritual rapport between you and the client. And yet the client has no idea that you have been praying for them and in fact they never find out.

Now you may get confused when I say you don't have to believe in God to do this and I find it difficult to explain what I am getting at in this regard.
Let me say that it is a kind of method acting. There is no denying that prayer is an immensely PRACTICAL thing. There is no denying that the very act of prayer is beneficial to the person who is doing the praying. That is because prayer fulfills some very basic psychological needs which all people share, whether they believe in God or not. For one thing it gives you a sense of not being alone and sharing your burdens, it relieves stress (and doing a reading can be very stressful) and it helps you to put into words what is troubling you and brings clarity to your problems.

From a psychic reading point of view it creates a spiritual atmosphere and helps you to approach your client with compassion. And when you pray for the client you are also praying for yourself because as I stated in parentheses above reading for people who have great problems can be stressful for the counsellor whether that counsellor be a social worker, clergyman or even a psychic. Sometimes just the act of prayer can help a reader to be more effective if he doesn't know what to say. Often if I have no idea how to offer a helpful suggestion or know what to say in a certain situation I say a silent prayer and just leave it to the cards, God, and the universe to sort it out. And those sources invariably do the job for me. And the act of silent prayer helps to calm ME down and relieve the stress of the reading and the client's burden from MY shoulders. Thus it helps me to do a better job. This kind of approach is far more effective than worrying about their body language or asking leading questions to elicit information. God gives you the information.

But you ask, how can you do this if you don't believe in God as I certainly don't? Well, if I want the undoubted benefit of the above I have to figure out a way of getting it even though I am not entitled to it. That is the hustler part of me coming out. If you do believe in God you are one step ahead in this but alas belief in God tends to bring all sorts of religious trappings and gobble-de-gook which you don't want anywhere near a reading. So how do I get the benefit without the belief. I feel greatly irritated that the believers get the benefit while cynics like me get nothing. Zilch. So what do I do? Well, like any good hustler I STEAL the benefit! And how do I steal it? Well, as I hinted earlier it is a kind of method acting. This is getting a trifle deep so I shall pause, say a prayer ( a fraudulent one of a non-believer), take a deep breath and here we go in an attempt to explain my contradictory stance.

It is a well known psychological trick that feelings often follow action. For example if you feel miserable the way to get out of this misery is to ACT happy. And if you act happy by forcing yourself to smile, sing or whistle an odd thing happens you suddenly start to feel happy. If you are afraid then the act of acting brave will actually tend to give you courage. If you lack enthusiasm the act of acting enthusiastic will tend to make you enthusiastic. That is because the feeling often follows the action. So if you want to believe in God simply for the purpose of the reading then act as if you believe in him and you will derive the benefit of believing and you will tend to believe in this power for a short time at least. And the reading will take on more power. When the reading finishes you take the money, get rid of the client and the illusion is over.

But is it an illusion? Belief in God does bring a certain peace and calm and fortitude and we can all agree on that whether we believe in God or not. Dr Alexis Carrell once said, "Prayer is the most powerful form of energy one can generate. It is a force as real as terrestial gravity. As a physician, I have seen men, after all other therapy had failed, lifted out of disease and melancholy by the serene effort of prayer.....Prayer like radium is a source of luminous, self generating energy...In prayer, human beings seek to augment their finite energy by addressing themselves to the infinite source of all energy. When we pray we link ourselves with the inexhaustible motive power that spins the universe"

Well, I don't really believe in God but I can believe in "the inexhaustible motive power that spins the universe" So I use that in a psychic reading. Immanuel Kant said, "Why not accept a belief in God because we need such a belief?" Well I certainly need such a belief when I do psychic readings so for that brief time I con myself there is a God until the reading is over.

Then I take the money.
kinesis
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Smile

VisionQuest, that was one heckuva post. Enjoyed and understood and really appreciated that.

Thank you for posting.

Sincerely.

Derek
Reality is merely an illusion, albeit a very persistent one - Albert Einstein






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visionquest
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Thank you Kinesis. Much appreciated. I just hope to God (no pun intended) that it does not cause all hell (another no pun intended) to break loose with all sorts of religious and theological bickering with the subsequent degeneration of the conversation. Alas I am getting a psychic vibe of this. I hope my premonition turns out to be wrong.

What I said is really meant for those who do serious readings.
kambiz
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Nicely said visionquest, thankyou for finally answering. I may even now contribute to this thread by copy/pasting a post I wrote regarding this matter on another private, more reader-friendly forum.

I think I may wait a little to see more responses to your post first.

I have some interesting theories as to your spiritual condition when you pray as a so called "non-believer" and you may be surprised to hear me say that, you may actually be more of a "believer" than most "believers"

I will clarify when I get a few more minutes of available time

Kam
If I speak forth, many a mind will shatter,
And if I write, many a pen will break.
.....and when I consider my own self, lo, I find it coarser than clay!
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