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oldmagic009 New user 54 Posts |
Hi: I've decided to try and build the better mousetrap ... that is, a better sucker die box or SDB. I only have one example in my box of goodies ... it was purchased in the late 50's or early 60's and I think it was sold by EZ Magic, Tannen or Grant ... it's basic 4 door model in red.
Here is my question for the group ... if you go on youtube there are some over the top performances with the SDB. If the illusion is to make the viewer believe that the magi is sliding the die from one end of the box to the other and the "sound" backs that up ... why oh why is there a wall between the two compartments? If you wanted to really fool someone the wall would prevent the sliding of the die. As an aside almost all of the boxes are poorly designed with exposed hinges, plus the box seems too small ... can you please provide me with feedback on this effect i.e. performance, design, etc. I did manage to find one example of the box online that is simply beautiful ... not sure who made it but it's called the Oriental Die Box, decorated with ornate Asian designs, painted gold, and black. Many of the other designs using walnut and other wood species look way too homemade and could easily be built in someone's garage ... and of course way overpriced with some costing $300 to $400 ... yikes. In another life I owned a small woodworking company and know how to build goodies out of wood (including reproduction colonial furniture) ... personally, magic apparatus that is just some dark stained wooden box is not attractive at all ... apparatus that is boldly decorated and "pops" is what is needed in order for your audience to pay attention ... just MHO of course. Thanks for your thoughts |
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Harry Murphy Inner circle Maryland 5444 Posts |
One would argue that the "wall" between the compartments makes the whole thing an even greater mystery. In 50 years of performing with a "standard" (if there is such a thing) Die Box no one has commented on there being a wall. It is a discrepancy that flies by the spectator and if noticed adds to the mystery.
Not every Die Box has the wall between the two compartments or fekes built into the door(s). See Michael Baker's version and see Abbott's "Shenanigan Die Box". Not every Die Box is a single unit. Some have each compartment come apart and can be moved a distance from each other. See Abbott's "Twin Di Die Boxes". Some die boxes have a clearly solid die put inside (no partial die - no sh*ll) and the die vanishes cleanly and completely with all sides of the box being opened so one can see right through it from all sides. See the "See Through Block-Box". You are thinking in the box why not develop a novel and intertwining approach to this near classic of magic?
The artist formally known as Mumblepeas!
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Bill Hegbli Eternal Order Fort Wayne, Indiana 22797 Posts |
Harry, pretty much gave the perfect examples of the different die boxes. There are 2 others I can think of being sought after through this section of the Café. One being made in England, do a search in this section for Die Boxes.
Not all the die boxes are painted or stained, some or exotic woods, check out Babcock Die Boxes. His craftsmanship is superior. Being you are master cabinet maker, and think the current prices are over priced, it would be interesting to know what you believe is a fair price for your cutting, assembly, and finishing for a Die Box. Not to mention custom metal work in some cases. That Die Box you mentioned you own is currently being made still, only it is made in China or India. Our local magic shop has one for sale on their shelf. True, Harry, again "hit the nail on the head" with his statement, you are thinking inside the box. It is more of thinking what you want the routine to accomplish. Therefore, you need a idea for a routine, then a method to accomplish that idea. There have been Die Box methodology using a wood block with a Dog Bone, a Man in the Moon disc, a pizza disk, a CD disc, a cigarette pack, a half dollar, a rubic's cube, and a yellow cube with no gimmick on the market. There have been and is larger die boxes on the market, the problem these present is transporting to events. If it is so large you can't pick it up, and handle easily, the effect is spoiled even further, and becomes awkward in handling. Then the audience is wondering, why doesn't the guy set it down and show all the doors. Invisible hinges is not what makes a good magic trick. It is the premise and the routine. Invisible hinges also add to the price in hardware and man hours, not to mention the thicker wood and wood these days is at a premium. What is your idea for a better Die Box? |
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Michael Baker Eternal Order Near a river in the Midwest 11172 Posts |
Hi Bob,
Hopefully, I can address some of your comments. I would first like to say that there are many different tastes when it comes to magic apparatus. Walnut, along with other domestic and exotic hardwoods have their place as material choice among the more flamboyant styles. Much depends on the performer's preference and the image he wishes to convey. That being said, let's assume for a moment that the quality is the focus, rather than the appearance. I have seen the far ends of the spectrum in both natural wood props and painted/decaled props. While the average woodworker could spend a weekend making a nice Die Box, many cannot, and this includes those who actually bring their wares to market. The quality of a Die Box made by someone like Mel Babcock simply oozes fine craftsmanship. The precision of the cutting and machining, the beautiful inlays, and the quality of the finish are all top notch. This does not even begin to mention the fact that there are features within these boxes that are not apparent at first glance. His attention to detail is first rate. Let's take a quick look at the red Die Box you mentioned. I am quite familiar with this particular product, as I first bought one over 40 years ago. While not top of the line, it was a decent prop... especially when you considered the selling price. However, the current incarnation of what is supposed to be the same product, is now a terrible imported imitation that costs almost 10 times as much. But, whether left with a natural wood grain finish, or given a simple paint job, the idea to some is to make the box as seemingly normal as is practical. There is simple elegance in such designs. The oriental die boxes are surely more exotic in nature. I make several myself, a small number of which appear on my website. These seem to be for a more defined taste. Some of those I have made go for quite high prices, largely because of the amount of time it takes to detail one, not to mention that some are made with features that go far beyond the simplicity of the "E-Z" prop. As someone who spent many years performing professionally, I also take extreme care to insure the prop does what it is supposed to do. You may be horrified to learn how much unusable junk is out there. Regarding exposed hinges on some boxes, this is not always the best way of course, but there are times when it may relate to the functionality of the box, or the hinges themselves may be a decorative feature. Suffice to say, there is often a broad spectrum of artistic expression, aesthetic harmony, and the ability to pull them off. I could say similar things about the colors some people paint their houses. Some builders do these things better than others. Size matters for different reasons. A collector may be limited to the available space in his display area, while a performer may be considering the size appropriate for the venues he typically works. What is needed in someone's living room is usually smaller than what is needed in a theater when playing for 500 people. Regarding the center wall... First of all, check my website again and you'll find a couple box designs that do not have center dividers. This is for a specific reason related to the routine. Second, the fact that a wall is there on many designs does not eliminate from the spectator's mind the possibility of the die sliding back and forth. In some cases, they simply overlook the fact, or conjure up up some mechanical logic to account for what is apparently happening. Every spectator on the planet has heard of a trap door. Finally, not all routines are based upon the "sucker" aspect, and may involve actions and procedures that give logic to a center wall being in place. Not all Die Boxes are created equal in method either. In one volume of the Albo Classic Magic with Apparatus series, dozens of pages are dedicated to describing different types of Die Boxes, and their various workings. I can also tell you from first hand experience, that there are many, many more types of boxes out there, that are explained nowhere except in their own instructions. It's quite amazing really. Regarding price... 'Tis true, you don't always get what you pay for, but quite often you do. I would first like to note that the American builders have a difficult time competing with products made overseas. But that is not always what affects the price. To a collector, the beauty of a piece of apparatus may be the paramount issue. They simply like the way certain pieces look, and are usually willing to pay for exclusive ownership. Another person may look at a prop as a collectible investment. This is a field all its own. A professional performer may be looking for durability. Considering the cost of a top end Die Box is usually paid for with one good show, the investment to a working pro is not at all out of line. All these features will affect what someone is willing to pay for a piece of apparatus, and of course, what another is unwilling to pay. As someone who has had experience either being or dealing with magicians in all those groups, I can fully understand the thoughts behind the purchase. I can also understand the desire to make my own props! ~michael
~michael baker
The Magic Company |
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Bill Hegbli Eternal Order Fort Wayne, Indiana 22797 Posts |
Michael, your writing and expression of words makes me so jealous! Dang you!
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magicgettogether Special user Michigan 556 Posts |
Quote:
On 2012-03-14 08:00, Michael Baker wrote: I always wondered why I keep buying these things. One thing that fascinates me is on the outside they are pretty much the same. Oh, I know you have this hinge and that paint, and doors that open this way and that, and it might be made of this or that and built by whoever. But they are basically like the design of tanks in the military. They are rectangular with about a 2-1 dimensional ratio (since the die is square this would make sense). What fascinates me with them is that within these parameters so many different ways can be made to achieve the same effect. Build a different Die Box and people like me will come. We don't need it, don't want to spend the money on it, but we must have it, its in our DNA. |
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gimpy2 Special user 960 Posts |
The price a magic builder charges is much different from a cabinet shop. The price you charge on magic includes a good portion going to the end dealer, most cabinets are sold direct to the builder or owner. If you build cabinets you have everything set up to do cabinets. Everytime you set up to build a new magic prop you will need to build jigs and set the shop up to run the piece. Cabinets have standard parts Magic props don't. You spend tons of time looking for parts that don't exist and end up needing to be custom made. You start a cabinet job with simple plans and methods pre detirmined. Many times a magic builder needs to come up with new tecniques to produce the effect,a lot of time spent on trial and error. You can not just look at how long it takes to cut out and asseble a prop, Much more to it.
Gimpy
www.gimpysmagic.com |
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Jim Sparx Inner circle Far Out, Texas 1144 Posts |
Try this if you have google search function. Type in search "die box magic," when you get to the page with all of the listings, click on "Images" just above the search bar. This will take you to pictures of the many varieties of the die box, some without the separation between the two sides. Go from there....
Works with other browsers but you get more pictures with google.
Et tu, Spartacus?
https://fineartamerica.com/profiles/chispadeelpaso.html |
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oldmagic009 New user 54 Posts |
First I'd like to apologize if I offended anyone with my negative slant on all-wood apparatus ... it's a personal bias ... I've made antique reproduction furniture in my youth(such as Queen Anne tea tables, mirrors, a couple high boys (I'll never do that again), etc. so I guess I'm a bit jaded in what I look for in woodworking.
My comments are mostly concerned with the "look" ... I've taken a bunch of design courses as a minor when I got my masters degree in Accounting (how's that for mixing up disciplines?) and I fully realize that function is critical but for me what sets a piece of apparatus appart from others is my initial "wow" reaction. For example, to me the very best designed children's props are produced by the Wolf's ... pure design ... if I were a collector of apparatus I'd buy everything they produce ... simply fantastic. (I'm a collector of something equally obsessive i.e. toy sewing machines and I've paid over $5K for one so I know extravagance) by the way their URL is http://www.wolfsmagic.com/Winds%20of%20Isis.htm Take a look if you've never seen their goodies. Thanks to all for your feedback ... certainly an eye opener ... I wish the Albo books were more readily available, would love to take a look at volume 2 for some more ideas. In doing my initial look at what's currently being offered I went to youtube and one of the dealers demonstrated a take-apart version and unfortunately when he took it apart the detachable base had the sound gimmick in it and he managed to give away the sound effect ... something I've noticed online is that some dealers don't practice the effects they're selling and often times give away the secret. Just thinking outloud for a moment ... has anyone done a sucker box with perhaps large sponge balls? Thanks again to all for all your comments ... and Michael your Oriental Die Box is one of my favorites ... I realize it's quite formal, but I like the look. As an aside your Color Vision Cube reminds me of one of the first sets I received as a kid ... it was by Remco and contained the trick (in plastic of course) ... I still have it ... I like your work and thanks for your feedback, it's very much appreciated |
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Bill Hegbli Eternal Order Fort Wayne, Indiana 22797 Posts |
My first question would be, why have a sponge ball in a box, when it is much more magical done in the hands. A sponge ball is kind of silent, so you would be removing one of the elements that make the Die Box such a success.
Additionally, taste in props is just that, personal tastes. I find Wolf magic items very bright cheery and fun designs. But, now you are off on another subject that has more to do with who our audience will be then the design of a prop. If you are doing children shows or family shows, then much of the Wolf line would fit right in. But if your audience is totally adults, then most the props would not fit, in my opinion. The other side of this goes also with your character you present to the audience. If you are wearing a business suit and tie, and your character is magician, then Wolf's designs would be a hard fit. If you were a magician in tails, then they might. If you wore a brightly colored outfit, then of course they fit. Wolf magic has the great graphics ability, you ususally see only on the side of buildings. LOL If you have the ability to make custom magic for yourself, they that is the best way to go. Many a performer do not have all those skills and thus rely on what is available on the market. Exposure is everywhere on the Internet, if you look for it, you will find it. Can't do anything about it, so it is best to ignore it. |
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oldmagic009 New user 54 Posts |
Quote:
On 2012-03-14 09:48, spartacus wrote: Thanks ... gives me some great ideas ... have put together a cad drawing of several ideas ... think the finished product will suit my needs as well as others ... there are some beauties out there. |
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SpellbinderEntertainment Inner circle West Coast 3519 Posts |
In my book Tales of Enchantment I describe a different take on the Die Box, a logical presentation and story that makes more sense than a huge die tipping back and forth in a peculiar box.
http://www.leapinglizardsmagic.com/csspa......ment.htm My version has also been hand-crafted by Wack-O Innovative Magic, and I think of the limited edition of about twenty there are two or three left. http://www.wackomagic.com/wackomagic/Herb_Chest.html Hope this helps! Magically, Walt |
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oldmagic009 New user 54 Posts |
Walt: slightly off topic but on the website where your your routine-related die box is sold, they are selling fake feet ... any idea how these are used?
Thanks also for your feedback (or should I say feetback, sorry couldn't resist (LOL) |
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oldmagic009 New user 54 Posts |
Quote:
On 2012-03-14 11:03, wmhegbli wrote: Well, the juxtaposition of a squeezable sponge ball (or sponge cube) being in a rigid box would be different ... plus I can think of a way of making the sound effect funny as well ... how about a clear box or a box that is half clear plastic and half dark box with the ball rolling in and out of sight ... just trying to come up with something unique. Might be called the Crystal Sucker. |
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Michael Baker Eternal Order Near a river in the Midwest 11172 Posts |
Bob,
There are die boxes (with a few different methods) that use a ball, instead of a block, but I have not heard of a sponge ball or block being used. There were at one time, collapsible blocks employed that were unlike anything currently being made, but that property was hidden. There are a number of die box variations that allow the block to actually be seen traveling to the other side, either because a door was accidentally (?)opened too soon (The Lloyd Monarch is one such), or as part of a physical feature, such as a gap between compartments. This is a common ploy with coins, pizzas, and other discs where the object can roll from side to side. The same concept is used for tricks like Run, Rabbit, Run. The audience sees what the magician does not. Some boxes infer the idea that the object may be sliding, but this is done by action alone, rather than with the addition of sound. The Cigarette Die Box is one, and the Raisin Box that I make (based on the cig box idea) is another. Because the objects are soft by nature, it is logical that they would not make the loud clunk associated with a solid block. One of my favorite designs is the English-style. It has 4 doors, but with two on the front and two at the rear. The sliding sound is the same. There are a number of other block and die effects, some of which are similar in nature to a Die Box in that the Die vanishes from one place, and goes to another. The Sewell Block Appearance may be combined with any appropriate block vanish, like the Norman Block Vanish, or the Baker-Tysl Block Vanish that I developed. Here is a link to another thread that shows a few such that I have made this past year. http://www.themagiccafe.com/forums/viewt......um=26&65 As I mentioned before, there are a lot of different Die Box designs out there, some of which have not been made for a hundred years. Regarding the variety of objects, there are boxes that use dolls, cages, bottles, and a host of other cool things. Some have additional finales ranging from multiple blocks, to silks, to livestock. The basic Die Box plot is such a classic that it has spun off variations for over a century, with no end in sight. That, in my mind is a strong magic idea, and probably only rivaled by the Cups & Balls!! Hopefully you will develop one that you are happy with. Even if the concept has already been invented, if you didn't realize that ahead of time, there is no reason why you shouldn't flesh out your own spin and build one for yourself. As a woodworker, you obvious realize the self-satisfaction that comes from such an endeavor! ~michael
~michael baker
The Magic Company |
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Bob1Dog Inner circle Wife: It's me or this houseful of 1159 Posts |
Quote:
On 2012-03-14 08:00, Michael Baker wrote: Michael makes some of the nicest die boxes I've seen. I have the one he's referring to above witout the middle wall and it's truly devious! And it's beautiful!
What if the Hokey Pokey really IS what it's all about?
My neighbor rang my doorbell at 2:30 a.m. this morning, can you believe that, 2:30 a.m.!? Lucky for him I was still up playing my drums. |
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Wizard of Oz Inner circle Most people wish I didn't have 5150 Posts |
I have the Herb Chest box Walt mentions. It's absolutely beautiful, and is the first die box that I own, that actually lends itself to natural storytelling. Great service from Wackomagic as well.
Pay no attention to that man behind the curtain.
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SpellbinderEntertainment Inner circle West Coast 3519 Posts |
Thanks for the shout out on the Druid's Herb Chest!
I so appracate that you've liked yours. A lot went into them, even the hardware was handmade. Of the two-dozen (they keep selling) only two or three are left. Let me know what routines you've come up with Wiz. Magicall, Walt |
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Dougini Inner circle The Beautiful State Of Maine 7130 Posts |
Quote:
On 2012-03-14 22:39, Wizard of Oz wrote: I also have an Herb Chest on order. I had to do it in two payments, though! LOL! This is the perfect prop! It's also made of teak, so I know it's going to be beautiful! I love the Sliding Die Box, but HATE the "sucker" aspect of it. I used to do magic for a living for a couple years, and found out (the hard way) that my audience did not appreciate being made to look stupid. Boy, I was COCKY! I only learned much later how poorly I performed with that attitude! Hey I was 22, and had a ton of "viss & pinegar", and was all to happy to show off! What really clued me in was one performance of "Two Balls and One To Pocket" effect. I actually had someone leave, because it really made me look like a bully! “Tales of Enchantment: The Art of Magic” by Walt has completely changed my performing style! I called Michael at Wack-O-Magic, and immediately put a Druid Chest on order! Walt talked me into it! I heard the story about how these Druid Chests came to be, and I HAD to have one! A heartbreaking story, and it makes these chests all the more valuable! I am SO glad I listened to Walt! I am also going to buy a Lota Pitcher custom made by a friend of Walt's! The story of the Irish "wee folk" with the Lota convinced me! I am no longer the magician I used to be... Doug |
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Wizard of Oz Inner circle Most people wish I didn't have 5150 Posts |
Doug, you will cherish the Herb Chest. It is absolutely stunning. Heck, the bag alone that it comes in is a work of art. (And that's a good thing by the way, as it is an important part of the story).
Enjoy. It's so pretty you may not want to use it...but use it anyway.
Pay no attention to that man behind the curtain.
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