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Silvertongue
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I was wondering if anyone had any suggestions or resources I could turn to to do with deepening meditative states in a guided meditation. I have led some meditations in the past but I wasn't satisfied with them. Any help would really be appreciated, thanks
For as long as space exists,
And living beings remain in cyclic existence,
For that long, may I too remain,
to dispel the sufferings of the world.
-Shantideva

Engaging in the Conduct of a Bodhisattva
dmkraig
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I'm a bit unclear. You sound as if you're equating hypnotic trance with a "meditative state." While there are similarities, I would contend they're not the same, primarily because real meditation includes pratyahara, dharana, dhyana, and samadhi.

I'm not saying that you aren't providing value with "guided meditation," but how are you relating that to the four steps of meditation or hypnotic trance?
Silvertongue
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I'm talking about techniques that are used in hypnosis and applying them to a guided meditation. These would include pacing, leading, suggestion, visualization, help quieting the mind, affirmation techniques, I don't know if all these would apply, I'm looking for ideas. This would be in reference to beginner meditators and some who have been attending for a few months. I just want to make it a relaxing, positive, inspiring experience for them that will make them want to take it into their daily life and start practicing meditation.
For as long as space exists,
And living beings remain in cyclic existence,
For that long, may I too remain,
to dispel the sufferings of the world.
-Shantideva

Engaging in the Conduct of a Bodhisattva
joshua the magician
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There's a meditation retreat that you could par take in which is run on donations only called vipassanna. The website is dhamma.org It is a very good technique and intensive meditation retreat where you meditate sitting still for most of the day. This could be more positive?
magicly,
joshua
Pomdini
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Guided relaxation hypnosis. I think guided meditation is effectively hypnosis. The same brain regions are active under MRI scans. For relaxation hypnosis you should probably be seeking the advice of hypnotherapists. Look up Michael Yapko, Terrence Watts or Ernest Rossi.
“If you don't go after what you want, you'll never have it. If you don't ask, the answer is always no. If you don't step forward, you're always in the same place.”-Milton Erickson
Anthony Jacquin
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Silvertongue, check out a book 'Self Hypnosis for Cosmic Consciousness' by Havens.

He mined the historical record regarding moments of enlightenment. He boiled those down to the common elements of the experience (light/sound etc) and wrapped that experience back up in his palatable hypnotic style. I am sure there will be some crossover with your interest.
Anthony Jacquin

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seadog93
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Ormond McGill wrote a book called "Hypnotism and Meditation" that describes what he calls "hypnomeditation" and promises enlightenment in two weeks!

I just checked amazon and it's not at all worth what it's being sold for; but if you find a cheap copy it might be helpful.

I think, if I recall correctly, "Trance-formations" by Richard Bandler had a very good description of how to effectively do guided visualizations. They cover information that seems to get skipped or just isn't known in most guided visualization books.

Also, since meditation is a western word and not inherently associated with raja yoga it doesn't seem helpful to force that definition unless it's agreed upon that that is what we are all talking about
"Love is the magician who pulls man out of his own hat" - Ben Hecht

"Love says 'I am everything.' Wisdom says 'I am nothing'. Between the two, my life flows." -Nisargadatta Maharaj

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sgrossberg
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There are some real gems in here:

Mind Games: The Guide to Inner Space

http://www.amazon.com/Mind-Games-Guide-I......on+games
seadog93
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That's a great book!
I spent $100 a while ago to get a copy of "Have Seance will Travel" which contains a version of the 5th (I believe) exercise from this book. I subsequently sold the book and just used the exercise from "Mind Games," which I like better, for my seances.
"Love is the magician who pulls man out of his own hat" - Ben Hecht

"Love says 'I am everything.' Wisdom says 'I am nothing'. Between the two, my life flows." -Nisargadatta Maharaj

Seadog=C-Dawg=C.ou.rtn.ey Kol.b
tiriri
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Besides being a stage hypnotist, I teach meditation and eastern thought at a University in Quito. There is a method that I find very useful with my students, it is a self-hypnosis that can be used as an introduction to a good guided meditation.

It is called the Schultz Autogenic Relaxation and you can Google the script, which is very easy to follow.

I started using that method before I was a hypnotist, but when I learned hypnosis and NLP, I added some anchors and NLP suggestions to the tone of my voice and I found out it works incredibly better, even though it is a great method itself.

Giovanni.
Daeld
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Quote:
On 2012-03-17 14:55, Silvertongue wrote:
I was wondering if anyone had any suggestions or resources I could turn to to do with deepening meditative states in a guided meditation. I have led some meditations in the past but I wasn't satisfied with them. Any help would really be appreciated, thanks


You've probably found your answer by now, but I'll chime in if it helps others who later search this thread. It is thought that this is likely to be biologically driven. It would be useful to know what exactly didn't satisfy you about the group meditation. However, here are a couple of things to think about:

Not everyone can use hypnosis in the same way. Although there are similarities, there are also two extremes. The majority of people have "average hypnotisability" (not surprising right? Smile) depending on what research you read, about 20% of people are "highly hypnotisable" and about 20% have "low hypnotisability". A very small proportion of people are "super" hypnotisable and a small amount have extremely low hypnotisability. So, about 60% will be "average", with 2 or 3 grades of hypnotisability in a spectrum. If you know what to look for (beyond the scope of this forum), you can have a reasonable guess about whether people are low, average or high. In the group setting, I tend to cater for the lowest hypnotisability. Why? People that have low hypnotisability will have a limited range of responses to direct and fast techniques and tend to perform better with a slower pace and more indirect suggestion. The highly hypnotisable will do well with either. When I started out doing groups, I used to do a quick measure of hypnotisability for each patient (in case they were mostly highly hypnotisable and I could do more direct suggestions). However, when they're coming for therapy, it can often be the case that their psychological capacity to use hypnosis is lower than their biological capacity (at least temporarily). Obviously in a meditation setting, this is probably not so much of an issue. However, it is still not terribly useful to measure hypnotisability.

Then there's the issue of what kind of meditation you're using (as in meditation techniques rather than the meditation theory). For example, some people find it hard to visualise (even if they are highly hypnotisable), so meditating with purely visual imagery, will cater for only part of the group. I find it helpful to use a wide range of "imagery": visual, auditory, tactile, abstractions, etc.

Another aspect is to avoid using scripts. Although scripts are useful when you're starting out to ge the hang of things, being able to respond to the group as a group and as individuals to keep everyone at close to the same level is important.

Finally, one of the most important aspects of group hypnosis (and meditation) is the debrief at the end. This helps you to gauge how effective you were at guiding the group (and therefore helps you to alter in any way that is necessary) and also helps the group in cementing the "take home" message of the experience. This can be a time when you "give permission" for people to be individual. In other words, some people will be wondering if they should have been able to see/feel/hear/etc all that you were talking about. This is a time, when you can help them understand that everyone responds differently, and that is great, because everyone is different. If it is a friendly enough group, they'll do this themselves naturally.

As always, no advice can substitute for training.
dmkraig
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Daeld, I agree with you completely concerning scripts for a one-on-one situation, and also in the way you value training.

I respectfully disagree with you concerning the "debrief at the end." When it comes to meditation, a person may have had such a transcendent experience that it becomes ineffable, and to try and get them to talk about the experience can literally destroy the lingering effects of the peak experience. This is different in group hypnosis. When people emerge from the trance state they are still very suggestible, and by using suggestive language and language patterns you can, indeed, "cement" the experience.

However, I completely disagree with your entire second paragraph. It sounds like you took it directly from some psych textbook and it was written by people who knew nothing about hypnosis. All of those percentages and grades you listed are, IMO, not merely meaningless and outright worthless, but they can be negative. If you assume that a person is likely to fit into a category, that's all you'll get with them.

Don't you think it would be far more useful to begin by assuming that each individual you work with will go into hypnosis just as deeply as they need to go?
Daeld
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Quote:
On 2013-03-28 17:48, dmkraig wrote:
I respectfully disagree with you concerning the "debrief at the end." When it comes to meditation, a person may have had such a transcendent experience that it becomes ineffable, and to try and get them to talk about the experience can literally destroy the lingering effects of the peak experience. This is different in group hypnosis. When people emerge from the trance state they are still very suggestible, and by using suggestive language and language patterns you can, indeed, "cement" the experience.

Happy to be corrected Smile Meditation not really my thing! Smile

As for hypnotic induction profiles and similar, I humbly disagree with you. In practice, they are useful. Granted, they are only a guide and I absolutely agree that the person will deepen as much as they need to. I do use the profiles as a way to plan the first session. Like I said, I no longer do it for groups. Smile
dmkraig
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Quote:
On 2013-03-28 23:51, Daeld wrote:

As for hypnotic induction profiles and similar, I humbly disagree with you. In practice, they are useful. Granted, they are only a guide and I absolutely agree that the person will deepen as much as they need to. I do use the profiles as a way to plan the first session. Like I said, I no longer do it for groups. Smile


What are they useful for?
For changework, either the person is hypnotized or they are not. Different "levels" and claims about "hypnotisability" only place self-imposted limitations on the hypnotherapist.
For entertainment work, what matters is whether the person is responsive or not. Hypnotize your volunteers. If they are responsive, keep 'em If they don't go into hypnosis or aren't responsive, send 'em back to their seats.
Daeld
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On 2013-03-29 01:52, dmkraig wrote:
What are they useful for?
For changework, either the person is hypnotized or they are not. Different "levels" and claims about "hypnotisability" only place self-imposted limitations on the hypnotherapist.
For entertainment work, what matters is whether the person is responsive or not. Hypnotize your volunteers. If they are responsive, keep 'em If they don't go into hypnosis or aren't responsive, send 'em back to their seats.


Well, stage hypnotists traditionally take a group of people and determine who among them are the most suitable for the event's plan. Whether they know it or not (I assume that they do), they are performing measures of hypnotisability. In research, I tend to use the Hilgard & Hilgard's so-called "Stanford Hypnotic Susceptibility Scale". If I do it clinically, I tend to use Spiegle & Speigle's so-called "Hypnotic Induction Scale". Why so-called? Well, I don't think for one moment that we are measuring actual global "hypnotisability". We are only measuring the patient's ability to be guided in hypnosis with direct suggestions with an authoritarian flavour (which is how these scales tend to be scripted). They are important in, for example, treating PTSD using hypnosis. Often-times the history will elicit any problems, but if they patient is ultra-highly hypnotisable (ie 5/4 on the HIP), then this will significantly alter how I use hypnosis in therapy (happy to talk about specifics, but private message is probably a better place for that). On the other extreme, the "low" hypnotic ability group tend to need a slightly different approach. Either way, they scales are just guides (in fact, more important than the actual score - which is only roughly accurate anyway - is how I find the patient doing during the test.

In recent times, I have tended not to use the HIP in therapy unless I want to know if there is a discrepancy between the observed hypnotic "ability" and the biological "capacity". Note that all these terms are used rather loosely (or at least should be)!

As for levels of hypnosis - yeah, I know it's a controversial topic. I think of it more as a spectrum of immersion and a spectrum of trust (ie how much the subject/patient/etc is willing to engage with the suggestions)

One group where I will use hypnotic induction profile AND think in terms of "levels", immersion, trust, etc is in the hypnoanaesthesia patients, particularly if anaesthetic back-up is not an option (which is quite rare these days). In these cases, I want to know about predicted biological capacity, current psychological capacity, etc, which the HIP (although not perfect) will provide me with a good start.

Getting back to relevance for the OP? Just that if a "deepening" sequence is desired/required/etc, then thought should be given to the different styles/abilities/preferences/variability/etc within the group. This would be no different from having to be aware of varying abilities in a group with mixed expert meditators and beginners (ie you need to cater to the beginners because the experts will take care of themselves) - the middle group should not be forgotten as, depending on what you're doing, you may loose them if it is too slow (naturally speaking from the hypnotherapy group point of view rather than a meditation group point of view).
dmkraig
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Quote:
On 2013-03-29 05:43, Daeld wrote:

Well, stage hypnotists traditionally take a group of people and determine who among them are the most suitable for the event's plan. Whether they know it or not (I assume that they do), they are performing measures of hypnotisability.


When you talk about such measures, you're describing a continuum. Sorry, but stage magicians don't have time to do this. Either the people are hypnotized and responsive or not.

Quote:
In research, I tend to use the Hilgard & Hilgard's so-called "Stanford Hypnotic Susceptibility Scale". If I do it clinically, I tend to use Spiegle & Speigle's so-called "Hypnotic Induction Scale". Why so-called? Well, I don't think for one moment that we are measuring actual global "hypnotisability". We are only measuring the patient's ability to be guided in hypnosis with direct suggestions with an authoritarian flavour (which is how these scales tend to be scripted).


Indeed, researcher need to quantify their research because so much of it seeks to place things on graphs, bell curves, and spread sheets. The purpose is generally not to help the people they're serving, it's to make their research appear "scientific" so they can get more grants!


Quote:
They are important in, for example, treating PTSD using hypnosis. Often-times the history will elicit any problems, but if they patient is ultra-highly hypnotisable (ie 5/4 on the HIP), then this will significantly alter how I use hypnosis in therapy (happy to talk about specifics, but private message is probably a better place for that). On the other extreme, the "low" hypnotic ability group tend to need a slightly different approach. Either way, they scales are just guides (in fact, more important than the actual score - which is only roughly accurate anyway - is how I find the patient doing during the test.


Why don't you just hypnotize them and do changework? Use fractionation to achieve the depth you desire and get on with the work.


Quote:
In recent times, I have tended not to use the HIP in therapy unless I want to know if there is a discrepancy between the observed hypnotic "ability" and the biological "capacity". Note that all these terms are used rather loosely (or at least should be)!

As for levels of hypnosis - yeah, I know it's a controversial topic. I think of it more as a spectrum of immersion and a spectrum of trust (ie how much the subject/patient/etc is willing to engage with the suggestions)

One group where I will use hypnotic induction profile AND think in terms of "levels", immersion, trust, etc is in the hypnoanaesthesia patients, particularly if anaesthetic back-up is not an option (which is quite rare these days). In these cases, I want to know about predicted biological capacity, current psychological capacity, etc, which the HIP (although not perfect) will provide me with a good start.


Why don't you just hypnotize them and create the anesthesia? Elman taught hypnosis, including anesthesia, to dentists. He taught that if you couldn't hypnotize a person to a useable level in under three minutes you shouldn't be using hypnosis.


Quote:
Getting back to relevance for the OP? Just that if a "deepening" sequence is desired/required/etc, then thought should be given to the different styles/abilities/preferences/variability/etc within the group. This would be no different from having to be aware of varying abilities in a group with mixed expert meditators and beginners (ie you need to cater to the beginners because the experts will take care of themselves) - the middle group should not be forgotten as, depending on what you're doing, you may loose them if it is too slow (naturally speaking from the hypnotherapy group point of view rather than a meditation group point of view).


After all the assumptions and tests to determine all of this stuff, you still have to observe the person you're working with. If what you're doing is working, use it. If it's not working, use something else. All the stuff you're talking about, IMO, is academic time wasting. It's like the way in grammar school I was taught how to diagram a sentence. That way you could visually see clauses, verbs, nouns, adjectives, adverbs, etc. But that was all academic. Today, people just do things like write and speak. They don't need to diagram the sentence before doing that.
Daeld
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On 2013-03-29 13:42, dmkraig wrote:
When you talk about such measures, you're describing a continuum. Sorry, but stage magicians don't have time to do this. Either the people are hypnotized and responsive or not.

Exactly, so the are doing a measure of hypnotisability (albeit not necessarily a "formal" one) - and they will typically only want those who engage and do. (Unless you're AN, in which case the induction apparently takes an hour :O )

Quote:
Indeed, researcher need to quantify their research because so much of it seeks to place things on graphs, bell curves, and spread sheets. The purpose is generally not to help the people they're serving, it's to make their research appear "scientific" so they can get more grants!


There are many problems with funding models for research, particularly in research. My particular research is about modifying techniques to suite the person. One of the problems in showing the validity of using hypnosis as a context for therapy is that researchers tend to do a one-technique-fits-all. Eclectic approaches (although I think they are more effective) are difficult to validate in research.

Quote:
Why don't you just hypnotize them and do changework? Use fractionation to achieve the depth you desire and get on with the work.

it is so much easier (and effective) to know their potential (which is typically high in PTSD) and use it to do imaginal exposure therapy.


Quote:
Why don't you just hypnotize them and create the anesthesia? Elman taught hypnosis, including anesthesia, to dentists. He taught that if you couldn't hypnotize a person to a useable level in under three minutes you shouldn't be using hypnosis.


With all due respect to dentists, I'd be more comfortable doing hypnoanesthesia in that context. In the surgical setting, I want to know that they have 100% control of the anaesthesia AND that they will respond to direct and authoritative suggestions if things don't go as planned so that I can help them get it back. Its a big deal. I will typically do a 6 session build-up to the operation with the surgeon coming in at the final session to do a dummy run. If it is a simple surgery, then I don't mind so much.

Quote:
After all the assumptions and tests to determine all of this stuff, you still have to observe the person you're working with. If what you're doing is working, use it. If it's not working, use something else. All the stuff you're talking about, IMO, is academic time wasting. It's like the way in grammar school I was taught how to diagram a sentence. That way you could visually see clauses, verbs, nouns, adjectives, adverbs, etc. But that was all academic. Today, people just do things like write and speak. They don't need to diagram the sentence before doing that.


Like I said before, I typically only use it in certain circumstances now, so I completely agree. In fact, most of the time now I will spend the first session dispelling hypnomyths and teaching them self-hypnosis. They then practice at home and the second session begins the therapy with them doing the induction and the deepening. If I need them to go "deeper", I ask them to do it themselves. If they need help, I'll show them how. My main reasons for this are to avoid dependence and to encourage an internal locus of control. In a group, obviously it is a little different.

Anyway, my thing was to point out that different people have different capacities, not to suggest to the OP to do the HIP for each of his meditation subjects LOL Smile
quicknotist
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Hi Daeld,
There are other forums for discussing hypnotherapy, which is an obvious passion of yours.
This forum is for discussing Entertainment Hypnosis, predominantly Stage Hypnosis, which you have made quite clear you're "opposed to."
http://www.themagiccafe.com/forums/searc......=7894389
Given your stance and the fact that you're a magician, I'm not really sure why you're posting here.
TonyB2009
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When I being a stage induction I am not determining - either consciously or subconsciously - levels of suggestibility. I am merely picking those who will do what I tell them, and eliminating those who won't. I couldn't care less whether they are suggestible or not, or whether they are hypnotised or not. I just want a good show. Perhaps this stuff is relevant in therapy. But not on a stage.
Mindpro
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Quote:
On 2013-03-30 06:41, quicknotist wrote:
Hi Daeld,
There are other forums for discussing hypnotherapy, which is an obvious passion of yours.
This forum is for discussing Entertainment Hypnosis, predominantly Stage Hypnosis, which you have made quite clear you're "opposed to."
http://www.themagiccafe.com/forums/searc......=7894389
Given your stance and the fact that you're a magician, I'm not really sure why you're posting here.


I've been wondering this since his first post as well.
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