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mindpunisher
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Actually Danny I have opened up a whole new market working at one of the most exclusive golf clubs in the UK. With my own mental training system.

My new clients will include top pro golfers and top celebs and wealthy businessmen. I am also currently working with champion athletes. Its still early days and its took me a couple of years to get in this position but that has been my intention for the last two years to get as far away as I can from stage hypnosis and the street brigade. And now its materializing. Its not been easy but looking back the view gets better all the time. I have already in the past applied hypnosis in ways you wouldn't have a clue about.

If you want proof pm your email addy

You still haven't challenged anything of what I have posted. Instead you grasp at straws. Your last three or four posts have all tried to change the subject.

Its not my knowledge its anybody's knowledge who cares to spend time on it. Thing about the guidelines in the UK you would probably agree with them anyway. And most likely adhere to them already. But the stage hypnosis market is dead and will never recover over here due to everyman and his dog selling cheapo products and dodgy trainings. The fact stage hypnos are running in their droves to sell out is an indication the market is never going to recover.

I was asked only three weeks ago to train someone for stage but I declined. I get asked every now and then but it is some that up until now has never interested me.
Zerububle
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I have an enormous willy...
mindpunisher
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I know and you keep sucking it loudly I wish you would stop, Anyway your just a common thief... and now I hear your training others to steal. that's worse than street hypnosis.. You should be ashamed of yourself
Dannydoyle
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You haven't backed up your blather and it is self contradicting. You do all the work yourself no need to bother.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus
<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
RSD
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Quote:
On 2012-04-19 05:45, mindpunisher wrote:
I think you are a clown RSD.....it happens on your side too.But when it comes to rules etc we are just a bit more civilized than you... A bit more less red necked. parts of the US are so backwards.


Im very sad you think I'm a clown. I'm devasted. When it comes to rules, I wouldnt call it civilized, I would call it tight-arsed and ignorant. Statutes and acts that are old, outdated and written by people who are obviously uninformed. But wait -they are just guidelines. No wait - they are laws. Wait - they are rubbish.
Dannydoyle
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I don't see a rash of these things happening . Go figure.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus
<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
Pakar Ilusi
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- The End -
"Dreams aren't a matter of Chance but a matter of Choice." -DC-
mindpunisher
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Ive seen them on news clips online occasionally. I figure your eye sight is off.
cameronb
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As a university student majoring in psychology and as a student of hypnosis, I'd like to contribute to this thread, despite its age.


I'd like to attest to the legitimacy of psychology and psychiatry as sciences. There are "hard" sciences, such as math, physics, biology, and chemistry, and there are "soft" sciences, such as psychology. However, that doesn't equate to pseudoscience. Rather, it refers to the amount of variability in the subject matter; for example, there are formulas that are applicable in math, but it is very difficult to draw up formulas for human nature, since the variability among humans is much higher than that among numbers that represent hard and fast values. The truth is that all decent experiments performed in psychology (e.g. those performed by BF Skinner on the behavior of animals) are held to strict standards that would be imposed upon any study in any form of science. Such a large degree of reliable findings in psychology (such as the span of time during which imprinting lasts in bird hatchlings of different species, or the efficacy of classical conditioning, or the processes that contribute to long-term potentiation in the neurons of the human brain during learning) are based very, very heavily on findings in the field of biology - a hard science. Ask any cellular biologist about the truth of classical and operant conditioning as related to LTP, and she'll tell you that it's good science. The fact of the matter is that soft science doesn't equal pseudoscience. This is a generalization based on a relatively small percentage of ill occasions. Remember that one bad apple doesn't necessarily spoil the bunch. That leads into the next topic.


On the topic of psychiatry, there are many unwise psychiatrists prescribing drugs for toddlers that "have ADHD," and taking other such unreasonable action. However, I'd like to say that this is not the case with the global industry of psychiatry. I believe that there is incredibly good reason to be wary of prescription. The truth, however, is that most psychiatrists believe the very same! After all, many people forget that psychiatrists are still human beings, many of whom came into their pre-medical university years with the dream of HELPING people. We don't call the search for the cure for cancer a "scam." In reality, there likely will never be a cure for cancer. That doesn't mean that every dollar contributed to the studies is a dollar embezzled by a greedy lab work machine. There are genuinely people who want to help other people be cured of a degenerate disease. In the same way, the majority of psychologists and psychiatrists sincerely want to help people. I believe there ARE some psychology and pre-medical majors who are thinking, "I will go into the medical industry because it's a way to get rich quick! All I must do is lie and potentially put a family in financial ruin! What an easy way to live!" However, I don't believe that there are too many. I know how difficult it is to pass the MCAT, and I know that 4 years of intensive study under a pre-med major at university is nothing short of brutal, let alone applying for and passing through medical school. I was dismissed from the pre-medical track because I simply couldn't keep up with the chemistry courses that I was required to take. Psychiatry isn't just a lot of con-artists making an easy buck. There are always exceptions, but they are just that: exceptions.


Finally, I'd like to write briefly on the topic of depression and whether or not a hypnotherapy session (as opposed to a prescription drug) would be an appropriate approach to the issue. First, my personal opinion is that, while some forms of depression (i.e. of the sort induced by trauma) can be satisfactorily confronted during a single hypnotherapy session (or heart-to-heart talk), there are other forms that simply are better handled with prescription drugs (even in the absence of financial gain), and this refers to chronic, BIOLOGICAL, usually genetic depression.

Here is a concept that is factual (according to scientists in both hard- and soft-science based practices): A major contributor to chronic depression is a lack of ample amounts of a neurotransmitter called serotonin in the synaptic cleft (the space between axon terminals and dendrites of separate neurons) after a release of the chemical occurs at a synapse. When the body feels certain kinds of "happiness" as it is colloquially described, it is the effect of serotonin that is coursing through the neurons of the body and of the brain, where it has been derived from an amino acid called L-Tryptophan and stored in transporter cells within the neurons. When it is released, it leaves the axon terminal at the end of one neuron, and enters the synaptic cleft, where it hangs about temporarily, and binds to receptors (if memory serves, they are called 5-HT receptors) on the dendrite of another neuron. However, not all of the serotonin reaches a receptor, and so some remains in the synaptic cleft. This remaining neurotransmitter (which is a word for a chemical that essentially "tells you how to feel" by coursing through your neurons) is taken back up and stored through a process called "re-uptake."
Here is where it becomes relevant: people who experience chronic depression often suffer from a lack of proper serotonin production, meaning that not enough of it will course through said person's nervous system. So as a result, that person (let's say on a scale from 1 to 10 in happiness) would feel like a 5, while the average person (a loose term, I know, but this is for the sake of example) would feel like a 10 under the same circumstance. THIS IS A BIOLOGICAL ISSUE THAT CAUSES THE EMOTIONAL ISSUE. That means it cannot be solved through one-on-one therapy. It simply cannot, just as an amputee cannot simply grow back a new limb through physical therapy, while physical therapy may be perfectly appropriate for someone with recent paralysis. Many antidepressant drugs are called SSRI's, which stands for Selective Serotonin Re-uptake Inhibitor. Essentially, when a person takes this kind of pill, it operates on the brain such that when serotonin is released into the synaptic cleft, it will remain there for a longer period of time, allowing more of it to bind to 5-HT (?) receptors, thus allowing the person to feel closer to a 10 than to a 5. That is the purpose of prescribing medication! Not just to make money. A lot of very, very painstaking work goes into designing medicine that allows people to get the right amount of the neurotransmitter whose absence is causing his/her depression. In the same way, you might take a vitamin to balance your micronutrients. But most wouldn't describe the industry as pedaling vitamins solely for profit.

In truth, many of the drugs have side effects, and many are wrongly prescribed. This is, of course, a drawback, but there is no way to eliminate lazy people or side effects - one can only limit these things to a comfortable level and hope for the best, because it's better than nothing at all.

There are limitations to hypnotherapy that can be bypassed with prescription drugs. In the same way, there are forms of depression and anxiety that don't require drugs and are better left to one-on-one therapy.


Thank you for your time, everyone. I realize that my post count is low, but that's due to my lurking and the logorrhea that I experience when posting.
"Tantum religio potuit suadere malorum."

~Lucretius~
Dannydoyle
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Did anyone else not read that?
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus
<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
Mindpro
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Makes you want to go out and do a show, huh?
catweazle
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I tried not to read it, but the glaze over my eyes couldn't block it fully.
I was quite enjoying the thread up to that point too.
Pomdini
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Cameronb. If you truly believe that, then there is no way you help anyone overcome depression, using hypnosis or any other approach. What a shame.

I applaud your lengthy post and agree with much of it, It is nice to read such things. I also love the way you use CAPITAL LETTERS.

It is true what you say about SSRI's (or SNRIs SNaRIs etc.) They are only effective if you are producing positive neurotransmitters in the first place. THEY WILL NOT MAKE YOU FEEL CLOSER TO A TEN THAN A FIVE. THEY WILL ONLY MAKE YOU FEEL CLOSER TO A TEN THAN A FIVE FOR A LITTLE BIT LONGER. Which is of course UTTERLY FANTASTIC, because the chances are greatly increased that during that period you will do some small thing that can encourage more positive behavior and make you feel closer to a ten than a six!(complexity theory). This will, as you know, lead to a positive form of long term potentiation meaning that the chances of a person becoming depressed again are substantially reduced. If you don't know why hypnosis absolutely encourages this then perhaps more study is for the best. This will even change the size and shape of some brain regions.

The brain is plastic. Just like reality! The brain will learn to be positive and balanced in just the same way it learnt to be negative and depressed. Physiological exceptions are rare. The current DSM is not altogether brilliant at telling the groups apart. Even when it can't, you should remember that hypnosis is only contra indicated when a person is experiencing a florid event and is evidently effective at reducing the frequency of such episodes. Thus hypnosis is almost never ineffective in the treatment of depression. or to avoid the negation ... hypnotherapy, when positively focused and expertly applied, is always effective in the treatment of depression.

It saddens me to read your post and find that you are already limited by what what you have been told. It is exactly this kind of thinking that can cause negative belief and lead to depression. Saying that one-on-one therapy cannot solve a biological issue is utter and complete nonsense and proves that you are not up to date with modern neuroscience (look in the mirror neuron).

As a hypnotherapist I look forward to clients presenting with depression because I know I can change their lives. I don't necessarily feel the same about smokers!
“If you don't go after what you want, you'll never have it. If you don't ask, the answer is always no. If you don't step forward, you're always in the same place.”-Milton Erickson
Pakar Ilusi
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Wow, this thread is still going strong... Smile

Bittersweet really looking at what's been said here.

Well, keep it goin' I guess... Smile
"Dreams aren't a matter of Chance but a matter of Choice." -DC-
cameronb
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Pomdini,

I should have been more clear in my post with reference to hypnotherapy as a solution to biological depression. I apologize if I came off as naiive.

Of course, the ideal is that neural plasticity will allow for an eventual reduction of the dosage of an SSRI or other antidepressant. The key is that it is a matter of time. I read a post earlier in this thread in which someone mentioned curing a person's depression with a SINGLE hypnotherapy session. What I wrote in my post was in response to that concept. I don't mean to say that any amount of hypnotherapy cannot solve biological depression; simply that it is not a one-time, end-all matter.

Naturally, I am still learning new things about psychology every day, and I don't mean to imply that my knowledge is law. I intended only to respond to a few specific matters presented earlier in the thread.

I hope that this post avoids the TL;DR fate of my last one.
"Tantum religio potuit suadere malorum."

~Lucretius~
dmkraig
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Camronb, although you have dogmatically stated that chronic, physiologically caused depression "…cannot be solved through one-on-one therapy. It simply cannot..." you have not given any reason, other than your belief, that this is so.

As long as you believe it, it's certainly true for you. And if you get into hypnotherapy, it will also be true for your clients/patients.

Meanwhile, people who are doing hypnotherapy are having wonderful results with clients of this type in one session.

Why do you think that is? And why do you think your dogma will prevent it?
cameronb
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Dmkraig,

What I have said is that a single, one-on-one therapy session of any kind simply cannot biologically alter the efficacy of serotonin production in the human brain. This is an effect that has been studied rigorously in laboratories for many years, and it is also the reason that SSRI's are designed to inhibit re-uptake RATHER than cause the brain to manufacture more serotonin. Furthermore, my believing this statement wasn't my only reasoning. I described the biological processes of serotonin re-uptake and the scientific discoveries in the field of neuroscience that have led to the evidence that only slowing serotonin re-uptake can cause a biologically depressed individual to respond more strongly to serotonin. Though SSRI's aren't necessarily the only means by which to do this, there is hard evidence that they do work, while there have been no conclusive tests to measure the efficacy of one-on-one therapy on the biological processes of serotonin re-uptake. This is because there is almost no way to control for other potentially causal variables.

What careful studies in cognitive neuroscience have shown is that the amount of neurotransmitter binding to receptors in a single person's body cannot be altered without changing chemical operations within the areas that interact with the neurotransmitter. Prescription drugs are produced because there isn't another way to alter chemical processes consistently.

While I agree that a hypnotherapy session can leave a person feeling very much past depressive thoughts, there is no documented proof that hypnosis is causing neurons to develop the ability to slow down their re-uptake of serotonin. Without proper EEG or MRI scans with traceable injections, there is no way to show that any one thing is causing the result. So although hypnosis may be CORRELATED with decreases in depressive symptoms, we cannot say with confidence that hypnosis is the CAUSE of the decrease. Correlation ≠ causation. This is a sound principle of logic. For more information on the concept, read this Wikipedia article: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Correlation......ausation . For instance, let's say you notice that a person observes that people who come in for therapy generally leave less happy after their sessions in January 2012 than after their sessions in July 2012. One might be tempted to say that the therapist has gained more skill in his trade, and that is why there has been a rise in patients leaving satisfied. However, we could just as easily assume that the lack of sunlight during the winter month left more patients feeling down despite therapy, and that the summer weather had a positive effect on them (symptoms of Seasonal Affective Disorder). The truth is that while the therapist's amount of experience correlates positively with the patients' levels of satisfaction after sessions, and while the increase in daylight correlates positively with the patients' levels of satisfaction, one cannot prove that either one is the actual CAUSE of the patients' variability in happiness without doing repeated, controlled experiments in order to eliminate other affective variables.

So it is definitely true that hypnotherapists can aid their patients extremely well within the time span of one session, but it doesn't necessarily mean that there has been any effect on the re-uptake of serotonin in the central or peripheral nervous system, and if there HAS been a change in neural re-uptake, it cannot necessarily be attributed to the experience of hypnotherapy, since there are so many other factors to be considered. For example, expectancy and placebo are well-studied phenomena that have skewed the results of many tests. I don't mean to offend anybody, nor do I mean to imply that hypnotherapy is a placebo. I am not saying that. I am simply saying that it is possible, and there isn't conclusive evidence on either side.

And please don't take my words the wrong way. I am studying psychology in the hope of one day having a private therapy practice. In no way am I trying to speak ill of hypnotic technique or its efficacy. I just think that it is wise to be cautious of making causal conclusions based on correlative evidence.
"Tantum religio potuit suadere malorum."

~Lucretius~
TonyB2009
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I am no expert, but I would be very surprised if one session of talk therapy could cure physiologically caused depression. Psychologically caused, perhaps.
cameronb
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TonyB2009,

This is what I believe as well, and what I mean to explain.

If one studies neuroscience, the reasoning becomes clear. This is the kind of science upon which we rely in order to even separate psychosomatic disorders from each other. So it makes little sense for a person to say, "I have experience treating depression, and I don't believe this neuro-jargon because I know what I have seen," while at the same time relying upon that very science to judge whether or not a person has depressive symptoms. Symptoms are understood through the physiological processes that lead to them, after all.

One more note to Pomdini: I read your most recent post again. I forgot to commend you on your "look in the mirror neuron" comment. I think only a psych student would laugh at that, and I did. So thank you. And again, there is still a lot that I am learning, and I am open to that experience. Though I still do not think that effective, transformative LTP is possible after one hypnotherapy session in such a way as to completely relieve a person of his / her depression, and I would say that anybody who walks out of a single therapy session and is cured for life probably didn't need therapy in the first place.
"Tantum religio potuit suadere malorum."

~Lucretius~
Dannydoyle
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Well certainly anyone who uses so many words must be right.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus
<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
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