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TonyB2009
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On 2012-03-26 22:22, Mindpro wrote:
Quote:
On 2012-03-26 20:23, TonyB2009 wrote:
Kraig, abreactions do not happen in shows. It is a meaningless fear.


Once again you are wrong. You are speaking about something you know nothing about. I understand this, but other newbies here may take your lack of skill and and true knowledge as fact.

It has happened during shows, I've had it occur in mine and have seen it in another's show as well. Don't speak factually about something you do not know about or have experience. It is certainly not a meaningless fear for those serious about hypnosis.

Mindpro, I have been doing this for more than a decade - several hundred shows. I know exactly what I am talking about. As does Danny. We don't get abreactions on the stage. What are you doing wrong that you get them?
Mindpro
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Exactly my point.
dmkraig
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On 2012-03-26 23:15, visionquest wrote:
I may be wrong but I get a feeling from Dmkraig's post that, unlike Mindpro, he doesn't do many shows if indeed any at all. I get a vibe he is a hypnotherapist rather than a stage showman and performer. He would therefore approach this subject from a hypnotherapist's point of view. However, we stage hypnotists have to live in the real world and in that world these so called "abreactions" aren't as fearsome a matter as is made out. Mainly because they happen so rarely that they aren't worth bothering about. I have a strong suspicion that one man's "abreaction" is another man's "over reaction to suggestion" and that isn't big deal at all if you keep calm and just say to yourself, "This is a load of baloney since I know perfectly well that this person isn't hypnotised in the first place and neither are any of the other idiots here on stage". You are then in a better position to handle the matter in a street wise common sense manner instead of wallowing in psychological gobblydegook.



Nice attempt at mind reading. Epic Fail.

However, your post is also a nice attempt to dodge the issue. Another Epic Fail.

I NEVER wrote that abreactions are a "fearsome" matter. Stating that is an OUTRIGHT LIE. I expect an apology.

Do the happen only rarely? Absolutely.

Are they not worth bothering about because they happen so rarely? Here in the U.S., building codes require smoke detectors in all homes and sprinklers in most buildings. I've never been in a house that caught fire and have only once been in a public building that caught fire. Fires are actually rather rare. So by your analysis we should get rid of fire departments and building requirements because it's not worth bothering about.

Such a attitude shows a total lack of caring about the safety of your participants.

It is clear from your posting that you've never experienced an abreaction. Congratulations. It's also clear that you are clueless as to what abreactions are. Your advice that they're not worth bothering about indicates a lack of knowledge and understanding. Unlike American Boy Scouts, with their motto of "Be Prepared," your motto seems to be "ignore reality and deny the possibility of anything you don't like."

Quote:
If anyone finds my portrayal of my beloved volunteers as "idiots" to be offensive I do apologise. However, it must be remembered that I have a very realistic, cynical and jaundiced view of humanity because of my background. I believe it gives me an edge. And it should be noted that the people who never have any abreactions are equally hard boiled and street wise as I am. Danny is an ex-cop and Tony is a hardened, grizzled former newspaper man who covered a lot of criminal matters in his journalism days. And as anyone that knows me will attest, I am a scoundrel of the first magnitude. People like us don't get "abreactions" probably because we have a more realistic and cynical take on them. We don't need "training" because we know people and their psychology. THAT is our training.


No, your "cynical and jaundiced view of humanity" does not give you an advantage. It just makes you cynical and unhappy. You have admitted to not bothering about the safety of your participants and now your lack of training. Others have complained about "performers" who give poor shows due to lack of training. I haven't seen your shows, but with you're attitude it's no wonder that some places are limiting or banning hypnosis shows.

Quote:
But to answer Kraig's points. First the only "training" I need is to know perfectly well that nobody is hypnotised in the first place. That serves me very well. Thus I am not hampered by belief in psychological tosh such as "abreactions". Notice I did not say there were not unexpected events that need to be sorted out but if you have any knowledge of what you are doing and what is actually happening to your subjects then you have nothing to worry about. And yes "ver excitement" is a perfectly valid way of describing what happens to a tiny few of your dafter volunteers.


Ah. So you're one of the "I'll give hypnosis shows although I don't believe in hypnosis" frauds. No wonder you've never had an abreaction! You don't hypnotize anyone.

Perhaps some day you'll actually learn hypnosis. I would hope, then, that you'd actually learn how to give a good show and assure the safety of participants.

Quote:
I am pleased to see that Kraig agrees with me that prevention is better than cure. I am glad to see that he is making progress in his studies with me. If he keeps putting some effort into these things he will eventually get the knack of things. I believe I have already alluded as to how you "prevent what is unpredictable" as he puts it. The thing is that it is NOT unpredictable. You know beforehand that there are various daft people who are liable to make exhibitions of themselves in this hysterical manner. So you prepare for it happening. I have already explained how you prepare for it. You say things in your pre-talk to discourage the unstable. I say, "If you suffer from severe stress or any kind of psychiatric (pause) disturbance (pause again to get a laugh) hypnotism can sometimes-sometimes be a wonderful therapy. But not tonight. Not up here. And not by me. However, if you are in reasonable mental and physical health I will be delighted to have you".


Someday, when you actually learn hypnosis, you might be able to teach amateurs. But you can't teach real professionals anything.

Quote:
The above or some similar wording discourages 90 percent of the people who would tend to have "abreactions". Contrary to what Kraig claims people do know if they are having psychiatric treatment. But Ormond Mc'Gill points out in his book how you spot an odd few who get through despite this weeding out procedure. He said that any trained stage hypnotist who has half his wits about him will know if he has a nutter on stage who is liable to start getting agitated in this manner and this person is dismissed before they cause too much damage. I am a great fan of Ormond Mc'Gill and do not agree with those who think his methods are "dated". Some of the sharpest advice I have ever read on this subject comes from this great man. And he doesn't mention "abreactions" anywhere in his books and he is considered one of the world's greatest authorities on both stage and therapy hypnosis. He does explain over reactions but despite his penchant for fancy big words he never did come up with "abreactions".


Maybe your fantasy disclaimer will "discourage 90 percent of the people who would tend to have abreactions" in your non-hypnosis shows. Real hypnotists will disagree. Curiously, NOW you like McGill after decrying any and all hypnotherapists. Why don't you attack him, too, for daring to write "McGill's Hypnotherapy Encyclopedia?"

Quote:
And yes. Ormond DOES say that you can tell the unstable just by looking at them. At least you can if you have a bit of street savvy. Sometimes a few will deceive you but you can spot them very quickly once the hypnosis starts. This is a very good reason for preliminary waking tests which are actually good entertainment in themselves if you proceed in the correct manner. As I have already stated you can often tell you have trouble if the spectator is overly suggestible and seems to get carried away in your initial tests.


What difference does it make when you admit that you don't do hypnosis?

Quote:
And of course you can prevent "abreactions". It seems that Tony, Danny, I and many, many other skilled hypnotists have been doing it for decades. It hasn't happened to me yet and I can guarantee that it never will.


You still are incredibly blind and miss the very point. You complimented me on agreeing with you that prevention is better than cure, but you denounce preparation and prevention.

But I do agree that you'll never have an abreaction. As you admit, you don't do hypnosis. You don't believe in it. Why should you get an abreaction?
visionquest
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"But I do agree that you'll never have an abreaction. As you admit, you don't do hypnosis. You don't believe in it. Why should you get an abreaction?"

Precisely.How terribly astute of you!

And I've got news for you. You don't "hypnotise" anyone either but to make you feel better about it neither does anyone else. The main difference is that my lack of belief in this tosh means I don't get "abreactions". I bet you get them all the time because you are hampered by your belief in them.

As for an apology you will never get one from me. However I think you owe ME one since you have been misrepresenting everything I have been saying.

I have NEVER denounced hypnotherapists.
I have NEVER denounced preparation and in fact have advocated it on this thread.
I have NEVER denounced prevention and in fact was the first one to mention it.
I have NEVER said that I have no interest in the welfare of my participants. As for "banning of hypnotists" not only have I never been banned I have been instrumental in having anti-hypnosis legislation REPEALED!
I have NEVER stated that you asserted that hypnosis is "fearsome" so you certainly won't be getting the apology you demanded for this matter.


However I DID state that I am suspicious that you don't do much in the way of hypnosis shows. I am delighted to say that I am no longer "suspicious".
I am now CONVINCED that you rarely if ever perform in front of the public. In the spirit of generosity, however, for which I am well known I will withdraw this contention if you can offer EVIDENCE that you have any experience as a STAGE hypnotist apart from your own words.
Mindpro
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But to answer Kraig's points. First the only "training" I need is to know perfectly well that nobody is hypnotised in the first place. That serves me very well. Thus I am not hampered by belief in psychological tosh such as "abreactions".


"Ah. So you're one of the "I'll give hypnosis shows although I don't believe in hypnosis" frauds. No wonder you've never had an abreaction! You don't hypnotize anyone."

Seems that this applies to several members here.


"Perhaps some day you'll actually learn hypnosis. I would hope, then, that you'd actually learn how to give a good show and assure the safety of participants.
overly suggestible and seems to get carried away in your initial tests.[/quote]

What difference does it make when you admit that you don't do hypnosis?"

Quote:
And of course you can prevent "abreactions". It seems that Tony, Danny, I and many, many other skilled hypnotists have been doing it for decades. It hasn't happened to me yet and I can guarantee that it never will


"But I do agree that you'll never have an abreaction. As you admit, you don't do hypnosis. You don't believe in it. Why should you get an abreaction?"
[/quote]

Again, this is seeming to apply more and more around here.

And for the record, Ormond McGill was a friend of mine and I trained with him, and yes, he did understand and believe in the seriousness of abreactions.
visionquest
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If Ormond believed in the seriousness of abreactions I wish he had written a bit more about them. It seems a glaring omission in his literature that he hardly mentions it. I do wonder though why, if you trained with him, you had two abreactions and the rest of us who didn't train with him haven't actually had any?

I have often wondered if Ormond REALLY believed in hypnosis. The reason for my suspicion is reported remarks by him at a magic convention that got back to me. Third hand I admit and no real evidence one way or the other but it did make me wonder. I am less uncertain about Gil Boyne. I know for a fact that he admitted to a noted magic dealer that hypnosis was bunk.

Anyway, you never told us how you handled the unfortunate incidents. I think that would be fairly educational.
TonyB2009
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Mindpro, your remarks are becoming highly offensive. I am very skilled at what I do, I have a lot of experience, and there is no element of fraud about my shows, despite the fact that stage hypnosis does not require anyone to be hypnotised. I have never got an abreaction, because I do things right.

I will not ask for an apology because I know from the tone of your rants that it will not be forthcoming. However I will remark that I find it odd that some people - mouthy people who like shouting others down - hide behind nom-de-plumes here, while people like Danny and myself (who do not get abreactions, remember) are not afraid to say who we are.
Mindpro
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I have a great deal more I'd like to say but can't right now (lucky you). Unfortunetly my computer pooped out on me last Wednesday. It's in for repair. Until I get it back I am using a 1942 MacIntosh with a keyboard that has a mind of its own, that is slower than some members around here, and only uses a dial up connection. This is why my posts have been so short. It's taken about 25 minutes just to type this and another 15 minutes to send. My mind and fingers are working faster than my technology at this time.
TonyB2009
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That still doesn't explain or excuse you calling me and Visionquest frauds. You need to withdraw that remark.

The rules of this section of the forum are quite clear; we are forbidden to discuss the reality of hypnosis. Yet you have labelled people here as frauds on the basis that they hold different beliefs from you on that subject. Please withdraw that remark so that we can get back to discussing hypnosis.
Dannydoyle
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For the record, not debate, I believe in hypnosis.
Danny Doyle
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<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
quicknotist
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Pakar Ilusi,
If you really want to share then please explain what happened.
Then, please tell us what did you do and which 'proper course' did you take?
visionquest
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Tony. I think you jumped the gun although it was an easy mistake to make. Mind Pro did not call us frauds. He was quoting dmkraig but the quote didn't come out quite right. I just wanted to put the record straight.
TonyB2009
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Mindpro, I apologise for implying that you called me a fraud. It was a misreading of your post.

However you did say that I have no skill or knowledge, which is still way out of order.

Danny, I know that you are a believer, and I respect your views. My point was that you are a seasoned pro who doesn't expect, and doesn't get, abreactions. We don't get them because, despite what Mindpro says, we do have the knowledge and skill to be doing what we do.
RSD
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I have never had an "abreaction". A few times I have had an "over reaction to a suggestion". I didn't see anything wrong with this. In fact, it made for some very dramatic moments on stage. At no point, did I feel that myself, my volunteers, or the audience were in harms reach at anytime.

Too lazy to scroll up and see who said it, but YES - I can spot someone who is unstable, or not of sound mind. My spidey senses usaually tell me something is wrong with someone. Now don't get me wrong, Im sure some have slipped by, but for the most part, they have been weeded out because something is "off" with them.

For my record - I believe in performing, making people laugh, and making money. Some people call this hypnosis.
dmkraig
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RSD, I don't know what you mean by an "over reaction to a suggestion," however generally an abreaction does not function as a *direct* response to a suggestion. By that I mean it's not a situation where you suggest X and the hypnotized person does X times 3. At least, that's how I interpret your idea of an over-reaction to a suggestion. Like you, I wouldn't see anything wrong with this. Rather, an abreaction is a situation where suggestion X triggers memory or emotion Y which has been repressed, and now suddenly remembered the response is anything from minor emotional to extreme physiological actions. These are not positive for the stage actors and do not look good to the audience.

Yep. I'd agree that after years of doing performances and working with people we develop "spidey senses" that something is wrong with someone. This goes beyond the way they look. But when it comes to this topic, mental stability has nothing to do with whether a person will have an abreaction.

It's a good idea to ask people with heart problems not to participate, not because hypnosis is going to cause a heart problem, but because a person with heart issues could have a problem at any time. But there's not direct reason not to do hypnosis on a person with heart problems. Similarly, there's no reason not to do hypnosis on someone who is mentally unbalanced other than that they can choose to use being on stage as a rationalization for acting out and trying to get attention.

But that has nothing to do with abreactions.
RichDash
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I fear the OP may be scared off now and we might not ever be able to learn exactly what went on...
bobser
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I have read the first half-ish of this thread and found it extremely unimformative, so I'll get right to the chase.
Abreactions are extreely real. I've had dozens over a 30 year period. Their caused (mainly) is when the recipient hits on a repressed memory ('normally' aged 3-6 years old in my experience)thus they abreact.
I'm not sulking (LOL) but I won't be arguing the case in this thread. For those who have ears and want to learn you're welcome to pm me. I totally understand those who haven't and have already decided. All my 'written' arguments wouldn't change their minds and I don't want to go through that. So... I'll leave the informed and the uninformed to carry on.

I have to close however by saying that one of you is extremely thick, and you probably know who you are with your very long uneducated threads.
Bob Burns is the creator of The Swan.
visionquest
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Bobser. You really shouldn't be so rude about Donald. He has written books after all.
Dannydoyle
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I am not going to get deep into this. Let me just say you guys need to read books written after say 1950.

I am not arguing that hypnosis is fake. I believe but let me say this about the whole "abreaction" thing.

It is based on shakey science from the 1900's and Freud. If you actually studied psychology in school, and not courses by hypnotists you would have run across this man. Dr. Richard J. McNally. He is the Professor and Director of Clinical Training in the Department of Psychology at Harvard University.

In a 2005 letter to the California Supreme Court, which was handling a case in which “repressed memory” was debated, Dr. McNally asserted:


“The notion that traumatic events can be repressed and later recovered is the most pernicious bit of folklore ever to infect psychology and psychiatry. It has provided the theoretical basis for ‘recovered memory therapy’ — the worst catastrophe to befall the mental health field since the lobotomy era.”

Many other prominent experts agree. “Repressed memory” is simply bogus.

Dr. Grant Devilly, from the Psychological Health research unit at Griffith University, agrees with Dr. McNally. Devilly says that memories of terrifying experiences work in the opposite manner of repressed memory theory. People rather wish they could forget their traumatic experiences.

“It’s the opposite. They wish they couldn’t think about it,” says Devilly

I am saying an entire industry has cropped up arround the theory. Others dispute the heck out of the theory. Here is some more.

Dr. James McGaugh from the University of California, Irvine. His expertise in the area of memory was once profiled on CBS’ 60 Minutes program. Regarding the issue of “repressed memory,” Dr. McGaugh said in a 2010 book,


“I do not believe there’s such a thing as repressed memory. I haven’t seen a single instance in which a memory was completely repressed and popped up again.

“I go on science, not fads. And there’s absolutely no proof that it can happen. Zero. None. Niente. Nada. All my research says that strong emotional experiences leave emotionally strong memories. Being sexually molested would certainly qualify.”

It is out there guys. Just look for it. At the VERY least there is SERIOUS dispute about it. Dispute by VERY credable people. Modern psychology is definately calling it hocum.
Danny Doyle
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<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
dmkraig
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Danny, I'm sure you'll agree that there are some people who believe that past lives are real and others who don't believe in them at all. Be that as it may, I'm sure you'll also agree that with hypnosis, it's easily possible for people to have the EXPERIENCE of a past life. The experience is real. Whether or not that experience is a factual representation of reality is definitely up for debate.

Whether a repressed memory is real or not is irrelevant. People remember things they BELIEVE they had forgotten all the time. It doesn't even require hypnosis.

I fully agree that "recovered memory therapy" is a disaster, often instituted by people more interested in promoting a political or religious agenda than actually helping patients. However, your claim that because recovered memory therapy is a disaster that the experience of discovering a repressed memory is "simply bogus" is your own misinterpretation and conflation of very different things.

As a performing hypnotist, I'm sure you've had no problem whatsoever producing positive and negative hallucinations. The mind creates or hides something that seems real. The same is true with an abreaction.

It doesn't matter if the recall of an emotion or memory is objectively true unless you're attempting the bogus recovered memory THERAPY. What matters is the experience, and if someone experiences a repressed memory or emotion, that experience is very real to them. And if they have a negative reaction to the experience, you get an abreaction.

You've conflated the memory experience--which is highly malleable--with an objective reality of the source of the memory. They are not the same at all. Problems develop because untrained people who claim to be therapists confuse the two.
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