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Dannydoyle
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First of all it was Dr. McNally who concluded it was "simply bogus".

Now here is the deal. IF this stuff is happening and it is not real, THE PROBLEM IS WITH THE HYNOTIST AND HOW THEY ARE PRESENTING THE SUGGESTIONS. NOT with "abreactions" as they don't exist.

The premise that a "repressed memory" causes somoene to react in one way or the other is false. It has been debunked.

Now if you want to have a discussion that places responsability where it belongs, with the suggestion giver, then we can do that. But the root cause is most certainly NOT a repressed anything. As has been shown it is pretty clear that highly charged emotional situations are tough to STOP thinking about.

As I said read the research (As they sort of require in school at University level now.) and get back to me. I am not going to debate 100 year old debunked theories.

Oh and as to your last sentence problems occur because too many people think they can do therapy after 2 weeks training. But that is another story don't get me started.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus
<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
TonyB2009
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Danny fairly much said (and far more articulately that I could) what I sincerely believe. If you do not accept or expect abreactions, you will not get them.

If you go into therapy with a Freudian therapist, then switch to a Jungian therapist, the nature of the dreams you report will change. It is not because anything real has change. You just feed back to the therapist what he expects from you.

Those of us who do not expect abreactions in a stage setting do not get them. I will say it confidently: I have another thirty years of performing ahead of me, and I will never get one. It is not something I have to worry about.

Danny has done far more shows than me, or most of us here. And he said that he never got them either. Tells you something, doesn't it?
bobser
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With regard to philosophical argument in this case, we'd be already dead, as our premise would be wrong. That premise would be in believing Dr. McNally, who has obiously never experienced the phenomena and happily admits so.
I already know that I and at least 3 dozen skilled hypnotists known by me are a million light years ahead of him.
No disrespect to Danny, who has himself no experience in this field, but as a clinical hypnotist of over 30 years I have. And I'm pretty much sure that I can safely say that Dr. McNally has his head severly rammed up his own poky.
But like I said, I really musn't get involved in this.
Bob Burns is the creator of The Swan.
Dannydoyle
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Yeaaa funny how those doctors keep getting things so wrong with their University studies.

Well he was called to testify in many a supreme court case... and yourself?


You are a doctor of what exactly?

These guys have backed up their words with studies. And yourself? You just know a bunch of guys who agree with you.

At least back up your opinion for us please.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus
<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
RSD
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I would like someone who as experienced an "abreaction" to give a detailed account of what happened. As much details as possible. Please paint a picture for me as to what happened. For me, after doing 100's of shows and 1000's of volunteers, I have no such incident even remotely close to compare too.
visionquest
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I have experienced many abreactions when I watch RSD's disgraceful x-rated show and I am merely a member of the audience. Whoever taught him hypnosis should be ashamed of himself.
dmkraig
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Quote:
On 2012-03-30 11:41, Dannydoyle wrote:
First of all it was Dr. McNally who concluded it was "simply bogus".


And yet, you repeated it.

Quote:
Now here is the deal. IF this stuff is happening and it is not real, THE PROBLEM IS WITH THE HYNOTIST AND HOW THEY ARE PRESENTING THE SUGGESTIONS. NOT with "abreactions" as they don't exist.


LOL! Could you possibly have more contradiction in one sentence?

1) They do happen.
2) They are real in that they do happen.
3) While in hypnosis, ANYTHING can set off an abreaction
4) The challenge for the hypnotist is not that they occur, but knowing that they occur and being prepared for dealing with them quickly and efficiently
5) NOBODY is saying they happen nightly, or weekly, or monthly. They can be exceedingly rare.

But when was the last time the theater you were in caught fire and burned down? Such fires are even more rare than abreactions. Does that mean you're not going to be prepared to stop such a fire as quickly and efficiently as possible?

Quote:
The premise that a "repressed memory" causes somoene to react in one way or the other is false. It has been debunked.


You're still clueless on this. Repressed memories happen all the time. Do you remember what you were doing when you were 3 years old? Freud referred to later memories that were repressed because of embarrassment as "motivated forgetting." What HAS been debunked is the idea that repressed memories are 100% objectively true. Here's the important part for us: It doesn't matter if a repressed memory or emotion is objectively true, what triggers an abreaction is the sudden recall of the accurate or inaccurate memory or emotion. It may be that the past event never actually occurred. But if a person has built up an imagined memory, it is "real" in that person's mind.

Quote:
Now if you want to have a discussion that places responsability where it belongs, with the suggestion giver, then we can do that. But the root cause is most certainly NOT a repressed anything. As has been shown it is pretty clear that highly charged emotional situations are tough to STOP thinking about.

As I said read the research (As they sort of require in school at University level now.) and get back to me. I am not going to debate 100 year old debunked theories.


I understand that. Facts get in the way of your predetermined limiting beliefs.

Quote:
Oh and as to your last sentence problems occur because too many people think they can do therapy after 2 weeks training. But that is another story don't get me started.


One this we ABSOLUTELY agree 100% I have nothing against such "weekend wonder" courses, but to tell people that they are now ready to do therapy is virtually criminal.
Pakar Ilusi
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Quote:
On 2012-03-27 16:17, quicknotist wrote:
Pakar Ilusi,
If you really want to share then please explain what happened.
Then, please tell us what did you do and which 'proper course' did you take?


I wanted to, but what difference would that make here, really?

Smile

To those who believe...

And I was just trying to help.

Anyway, you believe what you want.
"Dreams aren't a matter of Chance but a matter of Choice." -DC-
Dannydoyle
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Quote:
On 2012-03-31 12:30, dmkraig wrote:
Quote:
On 2012-03-30 11:41, Dannydoyle wrote:
First of all it was Dr. McNally who concluded it was "simply bogus".


And yet, you repeated it.

Quote:
Now here is the deal. IF this stuff is happening and it is not real, THE PROBLEM IS WITH THE HYNOTIST AND HOW THEY ARE PRESENTING THE SUGGESTIONS. NOT with "abreactions" as they don't exist.


LOL! Could you possibly have more contradiction in one sentence?

1) They do happen.
2) They are real in that they do happen.
3) While in hypnosis, ANYTHING can set off an abreaction
4) The challenge for the hypnotist is not that they occur, but knowing that they occur and being prepared for dealing with them quickly and efficiently
5) NOBODY is saying they happen nightly, or weekly, or monthly. They can be exceedingly rare.

But when was the last time the theater you were in caught fire and burned down? Such fires are even more rare than abreactions. Does that mean you're not going to be prepared to stop such a fire as quickly and efficiently as possible?

Quote:
The premise that a "repressed memory" causes somoene to react in one way or the other is false. It has been debunked.


You're still clueless on this. Repressed memories happen all the time. Do you remember what you were doing when you were 3 years old? Freud referred to later memories that were repressed because of embarrassment as "motivated forgetting." What HAS been debunked is the idea that repressed memories are 100% objectively true. Here's the important part for us: It doesn't matter if a repressed memory or emotion is objectively true, what triggers an abreaction is the sudden recall of the accurate or inaccurate memory or emotion. It may be that the past event never actually occurred. But if a person has built up an imagined memory, it is "real" in that person's mind.

Quote:
Now if you want to have a discussion that places responsability where it belongs, with the suggestion giver, then we can do that. But the root cause is most certainly NOT a repressed anything. As has been shown it is pretty clear that highly charged emotional situations are tough to STOP thinking about.

As I said read the research (As they sort of require in school at University level now.) and get back to me. I am not going to debate 100 year old debunked theories.


I understand that. Facts get in the way of your predetermined limiting beliefs.

Quote:
Oh and as to your last sentence problems occur because too many people think they can do therapy after 2 weeks training. But that is another story don't get me started.


One this we ABSOLUTELY agree 100% I have nothing against such "weekend wonder" courses, but to tell people that they are now ready to do therapy is virtually criminal.


Again your doctorate and university training are in what again?

If you want to make assertions please back them up.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus
<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
RSD
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Quote:
On 2012-03-30 22:41, visionquest wrote:
I have experienced many abreactions when I watch RSD's disgraceful x-rated show and I am merely a member of the audience. Whoever taught him hypnosis should be ashamed of himself.


He is very ashamed in fact. So much so that he rarely uses his real name! Smile haha.

PS: They are R-rated, not X. Smile
visionquest
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In line with Danny's enquiry with regard to Mr Kraig's qualifications I rather think it is about time we all knew something about him. He is not a hypnotherapist despite his waffling. He is certainly not a stage performer. He is an amateur magician and that is perfectly fine. However, his real profession is a writer and he has written many books about metaphysical matters. Here he is in all his glory:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4LuhD2Qs1P0
hypnokid
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Amazing debate. I was just thinking how much sense Danny Doyle was making - quoting authorities rather than simply stating his own beliefs - when I clicked on that youtube video. Smile

Abreactions don't occur outside of hypnosis (if they do they are called something else). Other things that only happen within hypnosis are teh result of suggestions. Those that act as if abreactions are nonsense don't see them. Could it be that abreactions only occur when they have been suggested (possibly by myths the subject picked up ages ago), when the hypnotist acted as if tehy might be real, and when the hypnotist didn't suggest that hypnosis is totally safe and that nothing will go wrong?

It seems that suggesting that abreactions won't happen is much better than having to deal with them.

HK
Too much style to be a stage hypnotist.
visionquest
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I do have a correction to make. I said that Donald Michael Kraig does not do hypnotherapy. It seems that I was wrong. He does. However, he finds it necessary to visit the clients, presumably in their own homes rather than see them in his office which he doesn't seem to have. I do find that a little odd and possibly unwise but it is not for me to tell people how to run their business since I have enough trouble running my own.

Donald is quite well known in the field of metaphysics and the study of weird things writing for Llewellyn which is the leading New Age publisher. Therefore he is terribly important and I hope Danny takes note of this. Here is more info about him. He does say on his website that he has a loud mouth. Naturally I have utterly no idea why he would say that.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Donald_Michael_Kraig
TonyB2009
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Quote:
On 2012-04-01 06:51, hypnokid wrote:
Amazing debate. I was just thinking how much sense Danny Doyle was making - quoting authorities rather than simply stating his own beliefs - when I clicked on that youtube video. Smile

Just to clarify, that youtube clip was not Danny,who is an experienced and highly skilled (and very entertaining) stage hypnotist. The clip was of DMKraig. I have never seen him perform. He too may be a very entertaining performer.
visionquest
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I don't think Donald performs in any way, shape or form. He believes in a lot of daft things such as past life regression and other kindred matters. He is very well known, and highly respected among his peers who believe in this kind of stuff. However, he is terribly pleasant on the many videos that are around of him where he is talking all sorts of nonsense very amiably. I rather liked him even though he is talking utter tosh. He is far less of a misery on video clips than he is on this forum.
Dannydoyle
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Quote:
On 2012-04-01 06:51, hypnokid wrote:
Amazing debate. I was just thinking how much sense Danny Doyle was making - quoting authorities rather than simply stating his own beliefs - when I clicked on that youtube video. Smile


Would you clarify this for me?
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus
<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
dmkraig
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I've been a professional magician for over three decades. I was a regular member of the Magic Castle. I've been doing hypnotherapy and giving hypnosis shows and lectures, as well as teaching for fifteen year.

Since HypnoKID puts so much into authorities, I'll quote one just for him: Cicero, the Roman philosopher, statesman, lawyer, orator, political theorist, Roman consul and constitutionalist. He said, "when you have no case, abuse the plaintiff."(Well, actually, he would have said that in Latin...) Today, lawyers and politicians do the same thing. When you have no case, make all sorts of assumptions without facts and wild guesses and plaster them all over.

It's always the sign of someone who, quoting Cicero, has no case, no proof, and nothing to stand upon.

And for those who, rather than live in a fantasy world, want to actually discover the facts about what an abreaction is, here is information from the Dictionary of Sociology:
http://www.encyclopedia.com/topic/abreaction.aspx#1

Here is from the Oxford Pocket Dictionary of Current English:
http://www.encyclopedia.com/topic/abreaction.aspx#2

Here's from A Dictionary of Nursing:
http://www.encyclopedia.com/topic/abreaction.aspx#3

Here is a paper on the subject, including a list of other associated studies:
http://www.mendeley.com/research/hypnoti......ation-2/

And finally, since you've now had your fill of quoting sources, here is a rather long discussion of it:

http://www.whatsonmybrain.com/handle-hypnotic-abreaction/

Here are some quotes:

"...abreactions are a normal part of hypnosis and everyone who practices hypnotism should be trained in how to deal with abreactions."

"Hypnotic Abreactions do pop up a little bit more if you are going to go the route of actual office based hypnosis also known as Hypnotherapy. "

"You are to never work with an abreaction unless you are being paid too. For instance, if you are on stage working with someone or doing street hypnosis and someone has an abreaction it’s not your place to work them through this situation at this time and place."
Dannydoyle
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I didn't attack you. I simply asked you to back up what you said.

Then you put up links to encyclopedia references? Dictionary definitions and nurse stuff. Oh and a hypnosis web site with a vested interest? Oh lord I thought you would do better I really did.

Well let me just say this about past life regressions. HYpnosis is ALL about expectation. If you hypnotise someone intending to uncover a past life, you have JUST PLANTED THE SUGGESTION THAT THERE IS A PAST LIFE TO UNCOVER!

I wonder why guys who expect these reactions seem to be the guys who get them?

I know you have a vested interest in these things being real, but read current research. And I mean stuff done by doctors at universities.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus
<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
bobser
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Danny,
Lets se if we can at least converse here.

I'm telling you that I have witnessed dozens upon dozens of abreactions. I'm also telling you that I have many friends and colleagues (all clinical hypnotists but NOT 'stage') who have witnessed dozens upon dozens of abreactions.

Now then, on top of that, if I understand you properly, you're saying that you think I/we are either lying or wrong, and that this 'doctor' is correct in that they do NOT exist.

I have to say to all reading this that you really must NOT put too much faith in doctors. It's only a Phd for heavens sake.
I myself possess honors degrees but never bothered to write up my Phd to become a doctor. I don't know if you've ever learned anything from me but I've learned tons of things from you guys over the years(thankyou).

By point is: If I tell you something that I KNOW to be true through my experience then it will simply BE TRUE.

This evening I am in Miami, in the presence of a professor of neurology who told me over dinner that he happily tells his students that 'half the things we tell you will be proved NOT to be the case at some time in the future'.

We both agreed that the best way to feed your mind is to go and DO things in order to have first hand knowledge, rather than listen to someone quote some text of someone else suggesting a thing does not exist. Especially when you know that that person is completely wrong.

This information I give to you totally free of charge, but, as I said, I really musn't get involved in this thread, so I have to go now.
Doing a show in The Florida Keys tommorrow... very excited!
Bob Burns is the creator of The Swan.
hypnokid
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Quote:
On 2012-04-01 10:31, Dannydoyle wrote:
Quote:
On 2012-04-01 06:51, hypnokid wrote:
Amazing debate. I was just thinking how much sense Danny Doyle was making - quoting authorities rather than simply stating his own beliefs - when I clicked on that youtube video. Smile


Would you clarify this for me?


Yes. I think the debate is much more interesting than a lot of debates that have been had here. I think you, Danny, have posted good and relevant quotes from authorities that on any other forum would direct the debate. I mean that people would debate what the authorities might have meant rather than dismissing them out of hand because they don't support their own views.

The video featuring dmkraig is titled "Living the Wiccan Life" and was made by Witchschool. I have to wonder if dmkraig has confused the rabbit out of the hat magic that is usually discussed on the Café with the woo woo, "there be witches", spells and ectoplasm (who ya gonna call?) of the fantasy world. Sorry if I wasn't clear - it was just surprising and made me fall off my chair laughing.

HK
Too much style to be a stage hypnotist.
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