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randirain Inner circle Fort Worth, TX 1650 Posts |
Dear silk magic guru,
I need some help with names and credits of some false knots that you do with silks, please. The first one, is the simple "cross knot". The easy one that everybody learns. What's that one called? The other one, is the one that you can actually let someone pull on the ends of the knot and tighten them, but yet the other direction it pops. What is that called and who invented it? Please help, Thanks Randi |
Bill Hegbli Eternal Order Fort Wayne, Indiana 22797 Posts |
The one that can be tripped is called a Square Knot or Reef Knot. It is used in the Sympathetic Silks Routines. I believe it is an old boating knot, dating way back, it is a standard knot.
I do not know what you mean by Cross Knot, as the Square knot starts out by crossing the ends as well, sorry. |
randirain Inner circle Fort Worth, TX 1650 Posts |
Ok.. Well trying to keep from exposing.
But who cares. If I reveal a huge silk secret... sorry, delete it. :rollseyes: But the basic knot that I was talking about is where instead of first making an overhand knot, you just cross the ends pretending to do an overhand knot. Then you really do tie an overhand knot for the second part. It looks like a knot is formed, but it falls apart. The other knot... You fold one end to be tied, in half. The other end wraps around that fold while making a knot. Then the end from the folded side is brought up and a regular overhand knot is formed with it. At this point, you can have someone tighten the knot. Because pulling on the ends will only make it get tighter. But pulling on the silks, on the other side of the knot, will cause the knot to pop open. That was showed to me once, and I don't know who came up with it. I am writing up my routines and don't know what to call them or who to credit. Any other help? Randi |
Mark Ross Loyal user Batavia, NY 236 Posts |
Randi,
In Rice's Vol. 3, p. 1230, the close up or blow-away knot seems to match your description of the "basic" knot. No one is credited by Rice, but I am quite sure that it is not his invention. Probably been around forever. The other knot sounds like tying & then upsetting a square knot, as Bill suggested. Mark |
Bill Hegbli Eternal Order Fort Wayne, Indiana 22797 Posts |
There are not that many knot tricks from long ago.
I don't know if you have a collection of books or access to these books, but you can check: Lewis Ganson Routined Mnaipulation Finale, Charlie Edwards' Dissolving Knots The Magic Slydini, Slydini Knotted Silks Rice's booklet More Naughty Silks If this is a rope knot converted to a silk routine, then it would take some indepth searching. |
Harry Murphy Inner circle Maryland 5444 Posts |
For the first one I believe what you are describing is Al Baker's "The Knot That Just Won't" from his "Magical Ways and Means". It is probably older but this it the first evidence in print I have.
The second one (upsetting a square knot) is old as the hills. Charlie Edwards a busker in England in the 30s through 70s and beyond was using it well before Slidini made it popular here in the USA. Charlie's routine is published in one of Ganson's "Routined Manipulation" books. The technique can be found in Tarbell's Course in Magic and Rice's Encyclopedia of Silk Magic. The best description of the working is probably in the "Annotated Magic of Slydini".
The artist formally known as Mumblepeas!
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randirain Inner circle Fort Worth, TX 1650 Posts |
Ok.. Well I think we got the first one. The blow away and the Al Baker, I am sure all the same thing I am talking about.
But the other is not upsetting a square knot. It's not even a real square knot. Here is how to do it tying a silk into a loop... Gather the two diagonals in each hand. If the left, fold over the end about a hands width. The other end, in the other hand, comes around the back of the fold and wraps in front and goes under itself. Push the fold forward and bring that folded end up next to the one you just wrapped. Now tie an overhand knot. This makes one real overhand knot, but one slip knot. By pulling the ends, it just makes it tighter because you are pulling the real knot. Pull the looped part of the knot and it falls apart, because you are pulling the slip knot. I hope that makes some sense. Randi |
magicians Inner circle Teacher and Legend 2898 Posts |
Could be something by Marconick.
Illusionist, Illusionist consulting, product development, stage consultant, seasoned performer for over 35 years. Specializing in original effects. Highly opinionated, usually correct, and not afraid of jealous critics. I've been a puppet, a pirate, a pawn and a King. Free lance gynecologist.
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hugmagic Inner circle 7655 Posts |
The first knot was used by the Blackstone's in the dancing hank routine. They called it the "knot that unties itself".
I don't recall seeing it Marconick though he does have some clever ideas. Richard
Richard E. Hughes, Hughes Magic Inc., 352 N. Prospect St., Ravenna, OH 44266 (330)296-4023
www.hughesmagic.com email-hugmagic@raex.com Write direct as I will be turning off my PM's. |
Rainboguy Inner circle 1915 Posts |
And....taa daa....the IMPACT of that little throwaway bit of the little white handkerchief "knot that unties itself", as part of Blackstone's Dancing Hank Routine was sooooooo powerful in the Blackstone Act, that Harry Sr. and Jr. had their own music scores written specifically as accompaniment just for that routine.
I can't remember the name of the music that they used....but I can almost hear it now......VERY impressive and STRONG showmanship! And with a knot! Isn't magic fun? <Smile> |
randirain Inner circle Fort Worth, TX 1650 Posts |
So much for any of silk gurus here...
My friend Matt found out what I needed to know, and of course it's in Tarbell. Both can be found in Tarbell 1. The first knot I was talking about is on page 368, called "The Fade-away Double Knot". The other one is on the next page called "The Nu-way Double Knot". These knots work great with my new 'Have Knots' gimmicks. Randi |
Mark Ross Loyal user Batavia, NY 236 Posts |
Randi,
I checked out your web site and I loved your demo videos, including the title. Mark |
Anatole Inner circle 1912 Posts |
I think "the blow-away" knot is what Cardini is in the process of tying in his "Festival of Magic" performance. Cardini never actually finishes making the false knot in the move. It just looks like he goes through the steps of tying a knot but the knot never "bites." I always wondered why. But now that I think about it, that makes more sense in the premise of the act--that a knot _should_ be the end result of his activity with the silk, but it's like he goes through the steps 1-2-3 but before he gets to 4 he's back at 1.
----- Amado "Sonny" Narvaez
----- Sonny Narvaez
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Alan Munro Inner circle Kentwood, Michigan, USA 5952 Posts |
Quote:
On 2012-03-30 00:43, randirain wrote: I just looked it up and one little detail of the write-up made all the difference in my handling. The Bruce Elliott description in "The Best In Magic" left out how to make the first part of the tying look right, as well as how to have the knot hold together. |
Magic Rik Loyal user Eastern Canada 296 Posts |
It sounds like that first knot is on Rice's Vol. 3, p. 1069.
Or is randirain talking about something else? Rik |
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