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landmark
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Quote:
On Sep 6, 2015, Jonathan Townsend wrote:
Quote:
On Sep 6, 2015, balducci wrote:
I believe he said her actions did, not her beliefs.

"Her ACTIONS are denying ... the legal rights of other parties."


is it a civil right to get married? (life, liberty...)


Not relevant.
It is, at a minimum, a legal right. And her actions have stopped them from exercising that right.
balducci
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Quote:
On Sep 6, 2015, Jonathan Townsend wrote:
Quote:
On Sep 6, 2015, balducci wrote:
I believe he said her actions did, not her beliefs.

"Her ACTIONS are denying ... the legal rights of other parties."


is it a civil right to get married? (life, liberty...)

If the shoe fits ...

https://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/civil_rights

"A civil right is an enforceable right or privilege, which if interfered with by another gives rise to an action for injury ... Discrimination occurs when the civil rights of an individual are denied or interfered with because of their membership in a particular group or class. Various jurisdictions have enacted statutes to prevent discrimination based on a person's race, sex, religion, age, previous condition of servitude, physical limitation, national origin, and in some instances sexual orientation."

"In addition to federal guarantees, state constitutions, statutes and municipal ordinances provide further protection of civil rights."

"Numerous international agreements and declarations recognize human rights. The United States has signed some of these agreements, including the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights."
Make America Great Again! - Trump in 2020 ... "We're a capitalistic society. I go into business, I don't make it, I go bankrupt. They're not going to bail me out. I've been on welfare and food stamps. Did anyone help me? No." - Craig T. Nelson, actor.
E.S. Andrews
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I really don't know why people are still going on about this. There is no issue to be litigated here. The Supreme Court has ruled that same-sex couples have the same right to marry as opposite-sex couples. The state of Kentucky requires couples wanting to marry to obtain a marriage license from the county clerk's office. One of the specifically enumerated duties of a Kentucky county clerk is issuing marriage licenses:

“The county clerk issues marriage licenses (KRS 402.080) and files and records all marriage certificates (KRS 402.220 and 402.230).” Duties of Elected County Officials, Informational Bulletin No. 114, Legislative Research Commission, Frankfort, Kentucky, August 2014, lrc.ky.gov, Chapter 5: County Clerk, p. 54.

Before assuming the duties of office, a county clerk must take the oath (or affirmation) of office prescribed by section 228 of Kentucky's constitution. Id. at p. 70. That oath that Ms. Davis took before she assumed office reads:


"I do solemnly swear (or affirm, as the case may be) that I will support the Constitution of the United States and the Constitution of this Commonwealth, and be faithful and true to the Commonwealth of Kentucky so long as I continue a citizen thereof, and that I will faithfully execute, to the best of my ability, the office of __________ according to law; and I do further solemnly swear (or affirm) that since the adoption of the present Constitution, I, being a citizen of this State, have not fought a duel with deadly weapons within this State nor out of it, nor have I sent or accepted a challenge to fight a duel with deadly weapons, nor have I acted as second in carrying a challenge, nor aided or assisted any person thus offending, so help me God." Kentucky Constitution, Section 228, Oath of Officers and Attorneys.


Upshot: No one made Ms. Davis run for county clerk or accept the position. Whatever her reasons for disapproving of same-sex marriage, be they religion based or otherwise, by refusing to issue marriage licenses to same-sex applicants and forbidding her staff to do so, Ms. Davis is violating her oath of office and the enumerated duties of that office. She can believe what she wants. She can worship whatever god she wants, or not. She can pray, or not. She can go to church, or not. She can live a life that she believes is "godly," or not. What she can't do, in her capacity as a county official, is violate her oath and not fulfill the duties of her office, which include issuing marriage licenses according to law. That specifically enumerated duty is not discretionary. It is mandatory.

If she doesn't want to fulfill that duty, for whatever reason, then she must give up that job or be impeached. The same would be true if she disapproved of bi-racial marriage or of marriage for previously divorced people, or if she disapproved of billiard halls, or selling cigarettes, or fortune-tellers -- even if her disapproval is based on a sincere, strongly held religious conviction or belief. As county clerk, her job requires her to issue licenses and permits for all those things (Duties of Elected County Officials, Informational Bulletin No. 114, Legislative Research Commission, Frankfort, Kentucky, August 2014, lrc.ky.gov, Chapter 5: County Clerk, p. 54) whatever her personal beliefs about their propriety, godliness, or sinfulness and regardless whether they violate provisions of whatever religious book or texts she happens to consider holy or divine. Again, these specifically enumerated licensing and permitting duties are not discretionary. They are mandatory. Don't want to facilitate those activities by issuing licenses and permits for them? Then don't run for county clerk and don't take an oath to faithfully execute the duties of that office according to law. Simple.
rockwall
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Ah, we can only dream of the day when everyone who violated their oath of office would either give up the job or be impeached!
E.S. Andrews
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On Sep 7, 2015, rockwall wrote:
Ah, we can only dream of the day when everyone who violated their oath of office would either give up the job or be impeached!


Nice try at trolling (not).
rockwall
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And here, I thought I was agreeing with you! Smile
E.S. Andrews
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No, you didn't. We all know your views and what you're after. Not gonna happen.
Jonathan Townsend
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On Sep 6, 2015, landmark wrote:
Quote:
On Sep 6, 2015, Jonathan Townsend wrote:
Quote:
On Sep 6, 2015, balducci wrote:
I believe he said her actions did, not her beliefs.

"Her ACTIONS are denying ... the legal rights of other parties."


is it a civil right to get married? (life, liberty...)


Not relevant.
It is, at a minimum, a legal right. And her actions have stopped them from exercising that right.


We have other discussions about people conspiring or acting to infringe upon or deny the civil rights of others.

back to the shoe fitting...
...to all the coins I've dropped here
Jonathan Townsend
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Quote:
On Sep 7, 2015, E.S. Andrews wrote:
I really don't know why people are still going on about this. There is no issue to be litigated here...


IMHO a public conflict between claims of inner belief and outward actions which deny the rights of others ( and institutionalizing such a practice ) merits discussion.
...to all the coins I've dropped here
rockwall
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On Sep 7, 2015, E.S. Andrews wrote:
No, you didn't. We all know your views and what you're after. Not gonna happen.


Now I'm confused. So you DON'T think that elected officials who violate their oath of office should either give up the job or be impeached?
Jonathan Townsend
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+ instructing their staff not to do their jobs. And costing others time/money for their efforts to obtain what is their legal right.
...to all the coins I've dropped here
balducci
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On Sep 7, 2015, E.S. Andrews wrote:

I really don't know why people are still going on about this.

How about this loon?

"Tennessee judge won't give straight couple a divorce because of gay marriage. Says he'll wait for Supreme Court to decide when divorce should be granted."

http://www.krmg.com/news/news/local/tenn......-/nnYTw/

http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morni......arriage/
Make America Great Again! - Trump in 2020 ... "We're a capitalistic society. I go into business, I don't make it, I go bankrupt. They're not going to bail me out. I've been on welfare and food stamps. Did anyone help me? No." - Craig T. Nelson, actor.
landmark
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Well, lots of coded messages here, so we're talking about abstractions which may or may not be equivalent.

So far on the table we have three scenarios:
1) The Kentucky case
2) The hypothesized Quaker case
3) The Tennessee case

If we really want to move the discussion forward and not just score points, then we should be talking explicitly about what these other nebulous cases mentioned by rockwall and Jon, but not explicitly stated, are. Then we can have an actual conversation about something.
Jonathan Townsend
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IIRC the Clerk instructed her staff not to issue licenses. And currently holds that any licenses issued would be invalid. Costs
...to all the coins I've dropped here
Destiny
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The Westboro Baptist Church have spoken.

She's an unrepentant adulteress.

No position to cast stones.

End of story.

Smile
balducci
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FWIW, the National Post is a decidedly right wing newspaper (its founder is conservative activist Conrad Black, and it generally endorses conservative causes):

http://news.nationalpost.com/full-commen......gone-mad

"To Canadians the gay-marriage battle in Rowan County, Ky., adds new colour to the increasingly prevalent picture of an America gone mad."
Make America Great Again! - Trump in 2020 ... "We're a capitalistic society. I go into business, I don't make it, I go bankrupt. They're not going to bail me out. I've been on welfare and food stamps. Did anyone help me? No." - Craig T. Nelson, actor.
balducci
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Is it just me, or does the new SCOTUS judge (okay, the next _likely_ SCOTUS judge) look a bit like Alfred E. Neuman? (That's a serious comment, I'm not posting this to make fun of the fellow.)

William Pryor:

Image


Alfred E.:

Image
Make America Great Again! - Trump in 2020 ... "We're a capitalistic society. I go into business, I don't make it, I go bankrupt. They're not going to bail me out. I've been on welfare and food stamps. Did anyone help me? No." - Craig T. Nelson, actor.
NYCTwister
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It's just you.
If you need fear to enforce your beliefs, then your beliefs are worthless.
LobowolfXXX
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Not too much, IMO, but I can see it a little in the shape of the face.
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
balducci
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It was the gap-tooth look that did it for me, but that look might have been due to a trick in the lighting in the photo.

Anyway, I guess T diddy thought the dude looked too much like Alfred E. to be taken seriously.
Make America Great Again! - Trump in 2020 ... "We're a capitalistic society. I go into business, I don't make it, I go bankrupt. They're not going to bail me out. I've been on welfare and food stamps. Did anyone help me? No." - Craig T. Nelson, actor.
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