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Woland Special user 680 Posts 
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This probably belongs in another forum, since I think it is actually very "magical," but I wasn't sure where to put it, so I will put it here.
Researchers at the University of Buffalo......ovement: Quote:
The automated UB system tracked a different trait -- eye movement. The system employed a statistical technique to model how people moved their eyes in two distinct situations: during regular conversation, and while fielding a question designed to prompt a lie. Note that there is no particular pattern of eye movements that was associated with high-stakes lying; it was a change in the subject's ordinary pattern of eye movements that gave the game away. The signficance to magicians should I think be obvious, and it is something that we have been taught for generations: that every deceptive move must be made exactly to resemble the normal move that it purports to be, and that any deviation from a normal or usual way of doing things will be noticed by observant spectators. I thought the confirmatory data was interesting. |
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mastermindreader 1949 - 2017 Seattle, WA 12586 Posts
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Great article. I have utilized a very similar baseline technique for many years in my performances. It can be highly accurate if the subject is in a sufficiently stressful situation. (Something that is easily accomplished on stage before a large audience.)
Thanks for posting this. Best- Bob |
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MagicSanta Inner circle Northern Nevada 5841 Posts
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My kid brother cannot get away with a lie. When he lies both eyes dart to the side, he can't control it, and everyone who knows him looks for that movement.
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tommy Eternal Order Devil's Island 16543 Posts
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As Erdnase might say “This cunning and absolutely unfathomable stratagem must have been devised by an individual of truly Machiavelian subtlety.”
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.
Tommy |
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Dreadnought Special user Athens, Georgia 836 Posts
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It is an interesting article. However, I would not put a lot of faith in it just yet.
The average for human interrogators is more than 65%, it is 70 - 73%. Seventy five percent is probably the upper end of the spectrum. Although the FBI agent who trained me claimed an 83% success rate that covered his entire 25 year - 18 as an interrogator - career. The problem with the study is that detecting deception is not confined to the eyes alone. A person who is a skillful liar maybe able to control his/her eye movements but there will be other sure fire clues identifying the deception. No one, can control their entire body. I would be interested in seeing what they accomplish with their next phase. Also, eye movement patterns, like other signs, could be a sign of stress, not necessarily deception, the person could be entirely truthful. Aside from kinesics, voice patterns and the words a person chooses, oral and/or written also plays heavily into determining deception. Peace and Godspeed.
Peace
"Ave Maria gratia plena Dominus tecum..." Scott Would you do anything for the person you love? |
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mastermindreader 1949 - 2017 Seattle, WA 12586 Posts
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All of those elements (and others)are used in establishing the baseline.
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Woland Special user 680 Posts
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Thanks, Bob. According to the article, it is not a specific element of eye motion, but a change in the eye motion pattern, that is significant. For magicians, therefore, the key is to learn to keep the deceptive version of an action identical to the "honest" version, and never vary the way we do something.
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mastermindreader 1949 - 2017 Seattle, WA 12586 Posts
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Exactly Woland. All you are looking for are deviations from the baseline established for truth telling. But, as has been noted, it is a cumulative thing and not limited to any specific motion or body language cue.
As a mentalist I have long found this to be a useful and, as I said previously, highly accurate technique. (It was also valuable way back when I was a trial lawyer.) |
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Dreadnought Special user Athens, Georgia 836 Posts
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If one would apply this to a magician's perspective within the constructs of performing, then it would be easier if you used what is called a backward analysis technique, which is the establishing of the baseline, in this case your baseline, on deception, not the truth. The reason being that lying is hard and there are a litany of details on which to focus. If you were to just perform and let the body language speak then you can focus on the effect rather than worrying about your eye movement, voice pattern, the facial twitches, body tremors, motions and gestures etc. etc. Since this stuff is highly individualized, find what major quirk(s) is/are yours and apply them to telling the truth.
Peace and Godspeed.
Peace
"Ave Maria gratia plena Dominus tecum..." Scott Would you do anything for the person you love? |
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mastermindreader 1949 - 2017 Seattle, WA 12586 Posts
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That's all true, and should be second nature to a competent mentalist. But I'm talking about establishing a baseline of the participant's, not the performer's, involuntary reactions.
After all, it doesn't take much effort to read my own mind (most of the time). The idea is to read the participant's. Good thoughts, Bob |
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Woland Special user 680 Posts
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You make a very interesting point, Dreadnought. In magic texts, we are usually told to observe ourselves doing the non-deceptive move, and then make our deceptive move look like it. The converse looks like another way to do it.
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Dreadnought Special user Athens, Georgia 836 Posts
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True, I was addressing Woland's thought about applying this to better deceive the audience by the magician masking his/her deception.
Peace and Godspeed.
Peace
"Ave Maria gratia plena Dominus tecum..." Scott Would you do anything for the person you love? |
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Dreadnought Special user Athens, Georgia 836 Posts
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Yep, Woland, it's like putting a rock in your shoe before taking the polygraph.
Peace
"Ave Maria gratia plena Dominus tecum..." Scott Would you do anything for the person you love? |
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Mr. Mystoffelees Inner circle I haven't changed anyone's opinion in 3623 Posts
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Bob-
One problem I have is establishing the base line quickly enough. With a relative or close friend, you have time to do this. With a spec, very little. Any tips? Jim
Also known, when doing rope magic, as "Cordini"
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critter Inner circle Spokane, WA 2653 Posts
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Quote:
On 2012-03-30 09:55, Dreadnought wrote: My neuro prof was partial to the "Kegel" method.
"The fool is one who doesn't know what you have just found out."
~Will Rogers |
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LobowolfXXX Inner circle La Famiglia 1196 Posts
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In many cases, lip movement is all that's required to detect deception,
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley. "...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us." |
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Ray Tupper. Special user NG16. 749 Posts
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Quote:
On 2012-03-30 12:18, LobowolfXXX wrote: That's how Michael Douglas sussed out Sharon Stone in Basic instinct.
What do we want?
A cure for tourettes! When do we want it? C*nt! |
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critter Inner circle Spokane, WA 2653 Posts
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Other lips, dude.
"The fool is one who doesn't know what you have just found out."
~Will Rogers |
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Jim Sparx Inner circle Far Out, Texas 1144 Posts
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The bible of criminal and forensic interview techniques is, "Principles of Kinesic Interview and Interrogation" by Stan Walters. Interviewers rely on the whole body movements and what is said and not said. Eye movements is only a small part of the interview process as proven by Bandler and NLP.
Ones speech and body movement tell you more than the eyes. I wrote about all of this in my book on psychiatric interviewing. If anyone wants a PDF copy PM me.
Et tu, Spartacus?
https://fineartamerica.com/profiles/chispadeelpaso.html |
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Dreadnought Special user Athens, Georgia 836 Posts
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Exactly Spartacus. I have Walters' book.
Peace
"Ave Maria gratia plena Dominus tecum..." Scott Would you do anything for the person you love? |
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Posted: Mar 29, 2012 09:03 pm 
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