So I have a question. It's not about whether or not you can present a Biblical message with a magic routine. I'm totally fine with that.

Rather my question is that I find that when people try to present the Bible with magic, either the magic is not as entertaining or the message is lightened. So when these 2 are mixed together in a presentation, one of the two also suffers a bit.

Let me give an example... Let's say you do the cups and balls. 3 cups 1 ball. You can say each cup represents one day. The ball represents Jesus' body. So you do the routine and one the third day, you lift the third cup and the ball that was momentarily there is now gone. So in this instance you say how Jesus' body was gone or something like that.

I personally don't find this kind of magic entertaining. And neither do I find that it conveys the message that great either. What I mean is if I were a kid I might be so focused on where the ball went that I don't hear anything else you're saying. Or maybe I'll have all these theories of how you sneaked the ball out or something (which obviously doesn't help convey the message even more).

I personally think that it's better to just do the magic as entertainment. And then after the magic show if someone wants to say something about the gospel then go for it. But to mix these 2 things in together at the same time. It seems lose-lose to me.

I'm interested in hearing if anyone has successfully blended these 2 well where the magic is still entertaining and also and the message is well received and understood in the audience. Of if there are any good resources. Thank you for your time.

HI MT

first off I completely understand your question and if I am to be truthful I am not impressed with much of what is called gospel magic. in the secular world we christian magicians are called second rate magicians because of this very problem

some focus on the magic and some on the bible lesson.

let me start by saying YES with out question the 2 can be blended into a powerful presentation.
however it is not as easily mastered as some may think.

I am in no way putting down christian or gospel magic and although years ago I thought it was really bad I have seen in recent years some very very high level gospel magic presented. God is using some awesome people around the world to unleash the truth of His love thru gospel magic!

before I share my theory's let me share some names in christian magic that present things very well.
andre kole
duane laflin--by the way he has a pretty good DVD series called the Art of Gospel magic worth getting!
steve varro
sam sandler
toby travis
david Ginn
dennis Kowal

these are just a small handful of those out there that can blend the two very well. there are many many more I am just not aware of them all.

I would also mention that in every artform there are those that can present things well and those that can not. secular of gospel.

now for my theory or feelings on this


personally I have not found many "premade" or "prepackaged" gospel tricks that I like. duane laflin does sell one called "is your bible read "red" and I will admit it was one of the first ones that I said to myself I could see me doing that one.

I have gone a different route though with my gospel magic.
my routines start out as secular magic tricks that I have brought a message into and combined the two.
I think where some loose the power of blending the two things is they focus on one or the other most of the time in gospel magic they focus on the message.

I should say also to have powerful presentations you really must be on your hands and knees seeking the lord as to what He wants you doing.

I script everything out and then walk thru the moves of the effect while reading the script and then seeing how I can make the two work together. thru lots of practice and re working everything you end up with something much more powerful.

some of my routines have taken 6months to a year before I was happy with them and willing to put them in the show full time.


sorry if I was all over the place with my response I just wrote the first words that came to mind and today has been a long day so forgive any fumbling words.

Gospel magic has come a long way kind of like christian music. is there really one solid answer to your question --no not really but this is my feelings and I know that a lot of people are working hard each day to perfect their routines to make them more powerful presentations so that the message will not fall on deaf ears.

if you have any questions let me know

oh and why not come out to the 2012 international fellowship of christian magicians conference. you will see many many great routines doing exactly what you wish they would be doing.


sam

Sam, thanks so much for your response. I was kinda feeling alone a bit because I didn't want to sound like I was criticizing gospel magicians, but what I've seen or have been exposed to is really bad magic and the message doesn't come out that well either. I hope to go to FCM next year. Hope to meet you!

Sounds good.

do you mean this summer or do you mean Next year. I will be at there this summer I will be lecturing and performing at the conference. hope you can make it and please make sure you find me and say hi!!

Two schools of thought on this- I think both are correct.

If performing before a "church group"- many "Gospel" messages can be used throughout. For example, let's say one is doing a program with an Easter theme in a religious setting for a mixed age audience. A very simple and excellent example of how to do this is by Duane Laflin using I Peter 3:18, some silks, and an "AVC" box. See the very end of "Now That's Magic! #4" at the 22:09 mark found at http://www.ChristianMagician.org

On the "Magic With A Message" show number #2 or #1 (not sure which one- it is the one entitled "Live on the Logos Hope"), MagicBob performs the "Jonah Paper Tear" from Dock Haley/Steve Varro which ties in the Jonah story with the Easter Resurrection (Matthew 12:40). This is a great Scriptural tie-in using a lesser known prophesy/event.

Other magicians such as Andre' Kole, usually took the approach of doing a top notch "regular" magic show first, then at the very end of the program tying it up with a personal testimony and use of effects like the "milk in the lightbulb" and/or the "Andre' Kole Three Ball Illustation."

So yes, Gospel magic does really "work" if presented well. Former FCM President John de Vries did a ton of summer VBS programs in churches, so his programs were saturated throughout with many Biblical references and custom made props (but not always- like when magically baking a cake and making a big cloudy mess with his flour sifter- something John seemed to greatly enjoy doing).

It always cracks me up when someone says a "message" cannot be integrated into magic- yet everyone pretty much agrees that Eugene Berger's "Gypsy Thread" is a classic because of his very involved emotional routine that goes along with it. Brad Brown's version of the "Gypsy Thread" can be seen at Now That's Magic! #2 at the 27.41 mark ( all found at the web site: http://www.ChristianMagician.org )

Yes I believe it can work.

The magic, humor, puppetry must blend with the message not over power or confuse the message.

I want my audiences to remember Jesus, not that I am such a great performer.
Using "non-gospel" magic works as well for me during a program. I talk about the importance of doing everything to the glory of God. That includes things from singing a Gospel song to taking out the trash.

Sharing when I forget that is also included. An example from last night. My wonderful wife asked me to go to the store for a few things. Her definition of a few things did not match mine.(sort of like her "5 minutes" and my "5 minutes".)
It took me a while before I cheerfully accepted the "short list".

Admitting that I fall short (as in the short rope in the professors nitemare) can lead into a rope routine.

Harris
falling short in other ways than being 5'5" tall
nearly normal reader and righter

I would be called a secular magician. The magic I perform mostly does not include Christian content. My performance does not use any foul language or adult references. I call myself an illusionist as not to confuse the people at my church. I perform my magic at church functions and on youth nights. Some times I will work with the youth pastor and will do some magic and he would follow it up with a sermon on "don't trust your eyes or your own understanding". I fool my audience but I don't claim that the magic is supernatural. I tell them that its an illusion. It looks real but its not, there is a secret way that the tricks work. I am a Christian magician, Christ should reflect in all that we do. I do not skirt from christian content but I don't force it either. Some times its just a 4 ace trick ;-) or a knot jumps on and off a rubber band, but I am willing to share Christ with anyone if the opportunity presents itself. I like Hebrews 13:2

Do not forget to entertain strangers, for by so doing some people have entertained angels without knowing it.

-Joe

If you type in gospel magic in google, you'll see a lot of bad gospel magicians. There are much more bad ones than good ones. Mixing the gospel and magic is NOT good evangelism, but entertaining people with magic while sharing the Good News of Christ is not only evangelism, but a nice way to bring the message to people you would normally not talk to.

It can be done right, but some people like to lie to themselves about why they perform gospel magic. They get into, "God called me to perform Gospel magic" mentality which is not biblical but hard to argue against. They put more emphasise on their magic than their message. They study and practice magic more than they do studying scripture and praying.

Until some people grow a couple of grapes and start calling out the bad ones, others will think what others are doing is appropriate, and those who are terrible will continue to be terrible.

The good christian magicians don't even go by gospel magician. They perform because they love entertaining folks with magic. They evangelize because they love God and want to see everyone saved. No, you can't mix those, but you can use them both side by side when your motives are pure, and you are always honest with yourself.

Magicbus-- good points and yes agree with you 100% it is true there are two different types of shows.

I like Andre perform my illusion show then share my testimony and the gospel but tomorrow I will be performing an Easter show and will have several bible stories through out the show. but not to many and I will have several just plain good old fun tricks and routines as well.

if you are at FCM this summer you will see my thread of life (gypsy thread) routine that I have been using for about 6 years now. I use it to close my shows and share my testimony.

the end point is we need to be seeking the Lord and working to the best of our abilities to create a high level show that will honor God and earn that right to be heard and be more effective when we unleash the truth of Gods love with the audience.

have fun and hope to see many of you there at FCM this summer.

sam

I think that a particular trick can be a real asset in presenting a Biblical point. It can be memorable for those observing. But an entire show revolving around gospel messages almost always makes either compromises in the message or in the magic. I much prefer to do a non message magic show and then give a personal testimony.

Robert

It's amazing to me that magicians stress the importance of theming a performance for school, library and corporate shows, but back off of that mantra when discussing church performances. All of a sudden it's not acceptable to build an entire show around a particular verse or a Biblical truth. Would you do a "regular" show for a school and the end of it say, "OK kids, 2+2=4. Stay in school!"?

Now, of course, there are differences in the types of events for any group of clients. An evening show hosted by the school for an ice cream social wouldn't want an educational show, merely an entertaining one. The same with corporate clients. An annual banquet doesn't call for a show built around a new product launch or to motivate the sales force. Churches also host/sponsor events that aren't focused on evangelism and so a regular show is the more appropriate choice.

But for evangelistic events such as VBS, Upward, children's church, etc. Your performance can(and should, imo)be an extension of what the audience has learned or will be learning, just like with a school assembly show. Your performance should reflect the theme of the event, just like you would with a Summer library show.

Can a show be professional, entertaining AND Biblically themed? Absolutely YES! Is it difficult? It is at first, but gets easier with practice, practice, practice.

And as far as this "earn the right to be heard" phrase, let me ask you ... when have you ever seen a Christian band belt out a few Rolling Stones hits before singing the Christian songs at a church event? Apparently they don't feel the need to "earn the right to be heard", they start out doing what they came to do.

So should we.

As someone who used to play in a Praise & Worship group, I have noticed that some of the songs played have a similar chord structure of good old rock & roll, blues, and even reggae. One can only do so much with 3 to 6 chords.(average # of chords in songs this harmonica player has used in Church music.

It takes more than a magic trick, getting along or singing a Gospel Song. (though I find merit in all 3)

Cue the musicians.....Give me that old time religion.

Harris
with his tongue somewhere near his cheek

The medium is the message...Marshall Mcluhan

Unfortunately bad magic equals bad message.

PO

I think one should seriously consider using their talents to build a rapport with the audience. Don't come right out of the blocks beating them over the head with a message. Don't weave a message through every trick. Work on your message, keep it concise and to the point.

Once you build rapport with your talent, delivery, etc...then share the message you feel led to give. Don't feel that your trick has to have a message at all. Let's take another medium for example...let's say your part of a skate team or BMX team that shares the message with people. Do you think it would be extremely odd and forced if the guys jumping stated that they were jumping over sin or riding a ramp to righteousness? Well as odd as that sounds, that's what a lot of gospel magicians end up looking & sounding like.

That's not to say that you can't weave a message through your trick. But DON'T do it on every trick. Look at what is the weakest part of your show...and fix or replace it.

Kevin

I perform mentalism which sometimes gives me a springboard to witness. I do not incorporate a message, granted but psychic questions are usually asked in which I can plant a seed.

Living Illusions-- RIGHT! well said

Wes Holly- first let me say you are correct most christian bands do not belt out a few secular songs before the christian stuff however your analogy is severely flawed! they are a christian band and there for 90% or more of the attendees are also Christians or church goers. they are preaching to the choir.

one of the biggest things I hate when I do gospel shows is how little the church does to get unsaved people into the seats. I don't like having 90% Christians or church goers in the audience. I want unsaved people.

this is why I highly recommend they have the show outside of the church - it makes it less threatening and will attract more unbelievers. and that is why I spend the first 30 minutes just entertaining and earning that right to be heard.

I can personally tell you that I have gotten comment cards that suggested that I give up the gospel stuff that my show was awesome but the gospel stuff needs to go. the cool part about that is that THEY HEARD THE GOSPEL! my bet is that they stayed to listen although disagreed they stayed why?? I think it was due to the fact I sort of won them over with my show. they liked me. of course I attribute any success to the Lords hands not mine.

but the point is earning that right to be heard is so important. sure if you are preaching to the choir then go ahead and have lots of bible story magic but I will still say that you should have some fun magic that is not bible related at all. too much bible story telling will over load the kids.

can you say veggie tales!!

magically yours

sam

Sam, the nexus of my post is still valid. I never said every routine had to be overly biblical. Veggie Tales and other similar shows use non-Biblical segments to underscore the theme of the show. Yes, some of the jokes and comedy are trivial, but the theme is woven through the entire show, which is evident during the wrap up in the last few minutes.

I will use routines that seem generic, but am able to reference them in the wrap up. Check out the educational shows on TV and you will see the same thing. Seemingly un-related content is still supporting the theme of the show. There is no wasted time. It's called scripting.

Yes, you have your comment cards and I have mine. This is my style, it works for me. As I said in my previous post, different types of events need different types of shows. I am not saying you are wrong for doing what you want to do, I'm just weary of the "preaching" on this forum and others of how it isn't possible or desirable to present a professional, entertaining program that has a Biblical theme, thereby discouraging others from trying.

Again, if this were about school & library shows we would not be having this discussion. We would be saying, sure, have a generic opening routine that gets the audience to like you, then go into the theme. We would not be saying to save the theme for the last 5 minutes.

Wes- I understand what you are saying and correct there are two different types of shows.

when I do VBS yes there are more effects that have to do with the theme however I still have some effects that have nothing to do with the theme but do show case the talent that God has given me. so I guess it does have to do with the show.

again I think you and are in agreement and I understand the "preaching" on the forum I just shudder at the thought of a show that just as a bible theme and every single trick has a scripture verse or every trick has a lesson. the kids don't know if they are too laugh and enjoy or pay attention and learn.

life goes on and if it works for you then you got to do it

but more then anything else pray about it and seek the lord and if he leads you or any one to do what you are doing then regardless what any one else says you need to be obedient to the Lord.

have a great day all
I am taking most of the day off and heading out to play some disc golf so see ya later!!

"I only drink milk from a Christian cow" thought patterns . . .

When we eat at church, all the food has to be religiously themed (hot cross buns, boiled eggs as a sign of the resurrection, vegetables as symbols of the Veggie Tales...) . . . and bought from Christian merchants . . . . Our church must be made by a Christian contractor using only Christian illegal aliens that will be deported as soon as they are finished . . .

All conversations MUST be Christian. No talking about sports ( with a Tebow exception, of course), cars, weather, real estate, entertainment --UNLESS there is a tie in with religion. Religious folk can only talk about religion, and only to other religious folk. Forget Jesus' first miracle was turning water into wine at a party!
~~~~~~

On the other hand, what will you remember of a preacher's message if he keeps pulling doves from nowhere during his sermon? I imagine you would be too wrapped up in where the next dove was going to come from. Where did this idea that a religious person could not have fun in church - unless it was some form of religious fun? Do people follow through with this idea at home? (Sadly so)

What is the objective of a magic show at church? Has anyone been turned away from their life of sin by "Run Rabbit Run"? I question the efficacy of ANY message of substance in entertainment. It does, at least in the VAST majority of cases, dilute the entertainment value, and perhaps even scare off any potential converts. Is it possible, sure, but WHY? Have you ever had an Alter Call immediately after a magic show? You haven't for a reason.

IMHO magic is entertainment, and entertainment only. A message can be woven around it effectively on occasion, but generally not. For the majority of magicians, the message should come AFTER the show. Magic (if done well) is too distracting for a message to hit home. It is good at filling pews.

I'll just throw my two cents in:

I find that magic is a good way to illustrate truths. But I find it far more useful as a discipleship tool than for sharing the Gospel.

When I preach at camps, I often use different effects as object lessons, to highlight the overall message (or a specific point) that I'm trying to bring. But when it comes to sharing the Gospel of Jesus Christ, usually I leave the tricks out, and simply preach the Gospel. That's just something the Holy Spirit has led me to do - to rely more on Him, and less on other things to keep kids "entertained."

That said, that's just one context. I've also performed magic shows for things like Year-End parties where I do share the Gospel with a Die-Box "Tomb" routine, followed by ABC blocks (which are now "Man/Sin/God" blocks), talking about how sin separates us from God, then using Psalm 103:12 to show how God has removed our sins from us, so we can be reconciled with Him. But I also do Bandana Banana because the kids love it and think it's hilarious, even if it IS way overdone.

So, every situation is different. I know it may sound cliched, but we do need to ask the Lord to guide us in each instance, and trust the Holy Spirit for his leading. Some feel that magic and the gospel do not mix. I think they can, but it depends on when and where.