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John Mazza
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Someone is acting like they are guilty.
macmac
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Hi Guys,

I have read with interest the discussion/debate/fall-out (whatever you want to call it) between certain people on this forum.

I have been on the forum for a while now but I don't post very often, however I have to speak out in defence of Stereo. I have dealt with him, shared threads and info with him and have consulted his website hundreds of times (as I think most of us have). Leaving his website aside which we all know to be the Holy Grail of Tenyo sites, his passion and enthusiasm for Tenyo is like no other and I also consider him to be one of the most genuine, honest, professional and trusted people on the Tenyo forum. It wasnt that long ago that a bunch of Tenyo collectors including me bought and sent him a Tenyo trick as a thanks for all his contributions and passion for Tenyo. A genuine spontaneous act of kindness without any ulterior motive. Without wanting anything in return.

I do not believe in the karma thread...that is my opinion. Whatever way you look at it it has religious connotations and that is not what this forum is for. It seems to have caused more hurt than good and one only has to read these threads to see that it has achieved the opposite effect.
Killertweety
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I'm very sorry if I'm sounding in a 'father-to-son'-like manner but I'm afraid my English isn't of the best and this is the way I can express myself.

I have a good/great contact with Stereo, JM, Nicolino, Azzam, Towledge, etc ... actually with almost everyone on the forum, and I really don't want to take sides here, which makes this post not easy. I have no idea what has been e-mailed and pm’d between members so I can’t and don’t want to comment on that.

What I do want to say in defence of some members is that I have been dealing with a lot of members on the Café and I NEVER had any problems, not with Nicolino, not with Stereo, not with JM, not with Azzam, not with anyone – all has been great and we help eachother where we can, on the forum, in a pm or via e-mail.
I have bought, traded and sold items and this place has been a fantastic help for me to help me complete my Tenyo collection and make it the way it is now. I have been selling stuff for more then I bought it for (like all of us), and like I posted in another thread everyone is entitled to ask for a trick what she or he wants, and if the buyer doesn't think it is a fair deal then so be it. We can call eachother greedy, dishonest but I believe in the end we're all human beings and making some profit to have a bit of cash to buy other magic items is inherent to who and what we are.

The Tenyo good Karma is nothing more then a good way to help eachother find missing Tenyo items with all parties doing the best possible and honest deal, and that is what Azzam intended I think. The idea is great, however, unfortunately, perhaps the world isn't build on good Karma alone. It's sad, but that's just the way it is. In the end we all want to complete our collection or find some very rare item or more then one item so we are able to sell it afterwards with profit or trade it with others. If Stereo decides he wants to put up his Ultratube up for sale rather then trade it it is his good right to do so. And if That'scool sells his Ultratube for (less then?) 100 USD that is very kind of him.

What does bother me, and I have told this to a few of you, is that in the past I have sold and traded LOADS of Tenyo tricks to members on The Café and only a few weeks later I saw them on this same website or on Ebay bluntly for sale for 4 or 5 times what they payed me ... and they were still unopened! Is this 'wrong'? No. But it does give me a bad feeling for sure. That is why I for one, as many others, have raised my prices if someone wants to buy something from me. Because in the end I KNOW that when I would like to buy a rare item from another member he will also ask a high price … that’s just the way it is, at least in most cases, unfortunately of course. I have literally been blown away of my chair with what some people ask for for example a Mini Morphosis these days … but hey, again, that’s the way it is.

One more thing, don’t get me wrong but what the heck does this mean Houdini: “there is far too much conspiracy, cajoling, and teaming amongst members …” ? Forgive me but I think you are searching in an almost paranoid manner after things that are not there. Of course the ones on this forum that were here first have a different kind of relationship with eachother then with people who joined very recently (and thanksgod a lot joined because it would be a boring/dull place here otherwise Smile ), not only because a lot of members come and go quickly (like in: ‘looking for some manuals’ and after that we almost never hear of them again) but also because we got to know eachother over years time, have dealt and helped in the past and everything went well. There is no ‘old boys club’ or ‘secret society’ … and if there was one then you wouldn’t know about it, it being secret and all lol Smile

I think I speak for everyone as I say we LOVE new members because new members bring new ideas, opinions, suggestions, ... and that's what it's all about! The suspicions some of you seem to have about some of us want to keep this forum as 'closed' as possible (I hope you understand what I mean here) are absolutely b*llshit.

I hope this whole thing blows over fast and we can get back to the order of they day, which is helping and supporting eachother with routines, ideas, suggestions and opinions, and we’re VERY good at that!

Also, and now I’m really starting to sound like a father to his son, but I suggest we use the personal message option in this forum to dispute personal things, we see what it leads us to and this is a bad thing for the whole Tenyo community.
Houdini103126
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Quote:
On 2012-04-14 19:03, Killertweety wrote:
Houdini: “there is far too much conspiracy, cajoling, and teaming amongst members …” ? Forgive me but I think you are searching in an almost paranoid manner after things that are not there. Of course the ones on this forum that were here first have a different kind of relationship with eachother then with people who joined very recently (and thanksgod a lot joined because it would be a boring/dull place here otherwise Smile ), not only because a lot of members come and go quickly (like in: ‘looking for some manuals’ and after that we almost never hear of them again) but also because we got to know eachother over years time, have dealt and helped in the past and everything went well. There is no ‘old boys club’ or ‘secret society’ … and if there was one then you wouldn’t know about it, it being secret and all lol Smile


Tweety, guilty are we? Your attempt to discredit me as "paranoid" is not only predictable, but ridiculous. As soon as one mentions the word conspiracy, one invisions a paranoid individual with tin foil in his windows to keep the Aliens from reading his thoughts! That's me! LOL. The reality is people in this forum conspire/strategize together, but this activity is kept private, I have received plenty of PMs from many of you citing this goes on. Therefore I can only conclude, conspiring, strategizing, and plotting goes on in an effort to better one's collection and gain the upper hand in deals. Cajoling is another problem with this board, and I know for a fact it occurs quite frequently, I define this especially as (but not limited to) more experienced forum members "preying" on newer forum members by soliciting them with ridiculously lop-sided trade propositions, "How about my two vault visions for your Diabolicus?". Teaming is another problem, as soon as one forum member has a discrepancy with another, their forum friends jump in to the discussion and quickly take sides. Too be completely honest, I think many of you are completely ridiculous and you know who you are. I think that if there was a gathering amongst us, everyone would act like pussycat's and purr.

The fact that many of you have known each other for a long time and have dealt with each other many times only proves THERE IS a "ToJ Old Boys Club", it's comedic as hell too.

My problem with you and Nicolino is that as soon as a new member joins, you two swoop in like vultures after a fresh kill, and solicit business from the new member. There is nothing inherently wrong with this, but often the new member hasn't the knowledge to make an informed decision and often ends up overpaying for items. I had a transaction with Nicolino that went well, so while I don't care for him, I can't knock him for a bad transaction. I have a different problem with him and he knows what it is. I have received some of your prices Tweety, and I must say, I feel they're too high. That's what I call GOUGING.

Quote:
I think I speak for everyone as I say we LOVE new members because new members bring new ideas, opinions, suggestions, ... and that's what it's all about! The suspicions some of you seem to have about some of us want to keep this forum as 'closed' as possible (I hope you understand what I mean here) are absolutely b*llshit.


I'm sure you do love new members, they are new business opportunities for you. I certainly don't think you want to keep the forum closed because it would slow down business. So I think your statement above is absolutely !@#$%^&*.

Quote:
I suggest we use the personal message option in this forum to dispute personal things, we see what it leads us to and this is a bad thing for the whole Tenyo community.


Now why is this omnipotent one? When you transact on eBay, while disputes are handled privately, is feedback? No. Everyone on this forum should have the right to post whether or not a transaction went well or went badly. My recommendation is that if you're going to barter on this board, a feedback thread be set up, and HONEST feedback be reported.
Killertweety
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Quote:
On 2012-04-15 15:50, Houdini103126 wrote:
I'm sure you do love new members, they are new business opportunities for you. I certainly don't think you want to keep the forum closed because it would slow down business.


That is a disgusting, sick making accusation there.

The only thing I told in my reply (and perhaps it was perhaps a bit harsh in words) was that there is no 'conspiracy' among 'old' members, and perhaps it wasn't wise of me to use the word 'paranoide' and even mention your name and therefore making it too personal. I excuse myself for that.

But what you replied about 'my business' is low ... VERY low. I'm not going to try to defend myself, if people think about me what you think well so be it then, I don't care, they can ignore me then.

By the way, in another thread you tell JM not to put his nose into stuff, but I must say it is a bit the pot calling the kettle black no? When I see you popping up in a thread it is very often to stir things up against Nicolino or JM Talbot. You know Houdini, when Azzam wrote his first reply in the Magicshop.NL thread I just KNEW you were going to come in and join the discussion.

Quote:
My problem with you and Nicolino is that as soon as a new member joins, you two swoop in like vultures after a fresh kill, and solicit business from the new member.


This is another very hard accusation. Do you even realize what you're saying here? Yes, if someone puts on a list of items and asks if someone has them for sale I sometimes, IF I have one or more items, suggest him a price, which is ALWAYS negotiable. I NEVER ask ridiculous prices, unless I don't want to sell an item (I also mention this to the member), I ask what I think a trick is worth. And I DO make some profit, like I said in NUMEROUS other threads. I also often give sites (if I know of any) where a trick can still be bought at a reasonable price in stead of trying to sell one I have. It was ME that was the first that told publicaly on this forum about Dynamitemagicshop weeks ago, remember?!

The things you have said and accused me of are so low I can't express it, I feel absolutely !@#$%^& sick.
stereo
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The first day I come to this forum in april 2010 after few days I make a deal with KillerTweety, I did not know him, and I asked him if he had Tenyo for sale by mail.

This is his reply :

----------------------------------------------------

2010/5/26 David De Graef

Davy

You will probably have seen it on my site, but there are a few other tenyo's I have you are looking for. I've mentioned them bellow with my asking price; of course shipping cost won't be a lot.

Here they are:

-Billscape 150 EURO
-Fantastica 30 EURO
-Menta Marvel 55 EURO
-Mini zag 50 EURO
-Moons of Jupiter 55 EURO
-Mirage 55 EURO
If you should buy more then one trick, there is, of course, always some room to negotiate Smile

------------------------------------------

All tricks was Brand new in package unopened .You'll make your own opinion concerning the asking price...

And AA I buy my Ultra Tube in May 2010, not last year, and I paid 150$ with shipping. At this time my blog did not exist...
Killertweety
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Lol Stereo you posted this by good hearth but that was not necessary my friend. People who have dealt with me know what I ask for stuff ... and if they think the prices are too high (and I don't sell rare items for peanuts of course) there are no hard feelings and we always try to make a deal.
I must say 150 EURO for the Billscape ...wow, I think that was one trick I wasn't planning to let go easily lol Smile

Anyway, I don't care much if people accuse me of asking extreme prices, what I do find sickmaking are the disgusting accusations Houdini made. And what's funny is Houdini is one of the few persons I have almost NEVER spoken to or dealt with to my recolection. And then this public reply from him ... BAH.
Houdini103126
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Quote:
On 2012-04-15 17:50, Killertweety wrote:
Quote:
On 2012-04-15 15:50, Houdini103126 wrote:
I'm sure you do love new members, they are new business opportunities for you. I certainly don't think you want to keep the forum closed because it would slow down business.


Quote:
That is a disgusting, sick making accusation there.

The only thing I told in my reply (and perhaps it was perhaps a bit harsh in words) was that there is no 'conspiracy' among 'old' members, and perhaps it wasn't wise of me to use the word 'paranoide' and even mention your name and therefore making it too personal. I excuse myself for that.


There is nothing sick about it Tweety, don't draw attention away from your actions, I call it as I see it. When NEW members PM me and say, "I was offered such and such by Nicolino or Killertweety" over and over again, it's quite clear you're both quite active solictors. It's your business if you want to wheel and deal, frankly I don't care one way or the other, but what I do care about it is when people come to me and tell me second hand of the deals they make and it clearly paints a picture of BAD Tenyo Karma.

Quote:
But what you replied about 'my business' is low ... VERY low. I'm not going to try to defend myself, if people think about me what you think well so be it then, I don't care, they can ignore me then.


No one said anything about your business, however, based on prices you have quoted me for some of your tricks, I find your prices to be too high. To me, that's gouging, but you have every right to charge as much as you want, no one is making anyone buy from you.


Quote:
By the way, in another thread you tell JM not to put his nose into stuff, but I must say it is a bit the pot calling the kettle black no? When I see you popping up in a thread it is very often to stir things up against Nicolino or JM Talbot. You know Houdini, when Azzam wrote his first reply in the Magicshop.NL thread I just KNEW you were going to come in and join the discussion.


Tweety, I can say the same for YOU and for Nicolino and for Talbot. I intentionally poked my nose into this conversation to make a point, from your response above, it's clear you didn't get it. I have some friends here at the Café that would surprise many of you, and I can say, I'm not the only one who feels the way I do about you bunch.


Quote:
My problem with you and Nicolino is that as soon as a new member joins, you two swoop in like vultures after a fresh kill, and solicit business from the new member.


Quote:
This is another very hard accusation. Do you even realize what you're saying here? Yes, if someone puts on a list of items and asks if someone has them for sale I sometimes, IF I have one or more items, suggest him a price, which is ALWAYS negotiable. I NEVER ask ridiculous prices, unless I don't want to sell an item (I also mention this to the member), I ask what I think a trick is worth. And I DO make some profit, like I said in NUMEROUS other threads. I also often give sites (if I know of any) where a trick can still be bought at a reasonable price in stead of trying to sell one I have. It was ME that was the first that told publicaly on this forum about Dynamitemagicshop weeks ago, remember?!


Actually Tweety, I have been in discussions with Rene since last year! You WERE NOT the first to discover the Dynamite Magic Tenyo find, I assure you that. What you mention above is drivel to me, you have quoted me prices and you were unwilling to budge, I found your prices to be obnoxious. You also just hit on the very thing his thread was originally about, doing good by each other. Instead of making a profit on someone as you mention above, why couldn't you just offer something at face value to a collector willing to do the same for you? Trade common trick for common trick? Trade scarce trick for scare trick? Trade rare trick for rare trick?


Quote:
The things you have said and accused me of are so low I can't express it, I feel absolutely !@#$%^& sick.


I haven't accused you of anything, just facts Tweety. You solicit sales from ToJ forum members = Fact, Your prices are high = Fact, Selling at high prices when you could sell lower to make a friend = Gouging.
Houdini103126
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Quote:
Anyway, I don't care much if people accuse me of asking extreme prices, what I do find sickmaking are the disgusting accusations Houdini made. And what's funny is Houdini is one of the few persons I have almost NEVER spoken to or dealt with to my recolection. And then this public reply from him ... BAH.


Tweety, don't try and make me the bad guy, don't give me the innocent babe in the woods routine. I have had some email exchange with you, I've got some prices from you, and I felt you're too high. That's my opinion. Don't say you have NEVER spoke with me because that's not true.

Why are you so fixated on a public reply? I will reiterate, I have never done business with you and don't ever plan on it. I cannot comment to the specifics of any deals other than those who have shared comments with me regarding deals you have made with them. There are many on the ToJ forums that don't want to speak up, that's OK. What I will say, is if everything I'm saying is BS, why are you so affected by it? Surely you would write it off as non-sense from the likes of me?

Honestly Tweety, I don't have anything against you personally, how could I, I don't know you, we only know each other from the boards, you could be a decent person, I'm simply citing examples of what I feel is wrong with the ToJ forum community.
J M Talbot
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[/quote]

Tweety, don't try and make me the bad guy

Actually we don't have to do anything... doing nicely by yourself.
Houdini103126
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Quote:
On 2012-04-16 09:17, J M Talbot wrote:

Tweety, don't try and make me the bad guy

Actually we don't have to do anything... doing nicely by yourself.


Talbot, all I have to say to that is...

As your Avatar points out quite nicely as you hide your face in anonymity, you're quite special.
J M Talbot
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[quote]On 2012-04-16 09:27, Houdini103126 wrote:
you're quite special.

Thank you. Once I find the right hat I will post a picture.
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