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The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » Did you hear the latest? » » Idiot Trying To Sell Teller's "Shadows" Secret (0 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

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stempleton
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Just saw this on TMZ...hope this jerk is stopped before it leaks.

It's the greatest crime in the magic community -- revealing the secret behind another magician's illusion -- and now, Teller (from Penn & Teller) is suing ... claiming he's a victim of the malfeasance.

Teller -- who legally changed his name to just "Teller" -- filed the lawsuit in Nevada federal court, claiming a foreign magician by the name of Gerard Bakardy posted a YouTube video, in which he performs a trick called "The Rose & Her Shadow."

In the trick, Bakardy uses a spotlight to cast a shadow of a rose onto a screen -- and then proceeds to "cut" the shadow's petals ... causing the real flower's petals to fall to the ground. Ta-da!

But Teller insists -- "The Rose & Her Shadow" is a blatant rip-off of his most famous illusion called "Shadows" ... which he copyrighted all the way back in 1983. Teller says he's been performing the trick with his partner Penn Jillette since 1976.
Kent Wong
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I have mixed emotions on this issue. On one hand, I wholeheartedly hate the exposure of magic (either intentionally or unintentionally). However, haven't Penn & Teller exposed a number of effects themselves? I'm not saying that this is any kind of justification but, if my understanding of their past exposures is correct, there is a certain degree of "irony" in play.

Having said that, a distinction has to be made between exposure and theft of intellectual property. If Bakardy's effect is strikingly similar to Teller's copyright, that is theft. That falls into a very different category than exposure. To the best of my knowledge, Penn & Teller have never engaged in the theft of intellectual property.

Kent
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randirain
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That's TMZ for you.

Teller isn't suing for exposure, he's suing for theft.

http://www.courthousenews.com/2012/04/13/45593.htm
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stempleton
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Quote:
On 2012-04-13 13:27, randirain wrote:
That's TMZ for you.

Teller isn't suing for exposure, he's suing for theft.

http://www.courthousenews.com/2012/04/13/45593.htm


Very true. There was more of the article below a pic of Teller, telling that this guy was offering the secret for sale ($3000 or so) but I did not C&P that portion. Should have been more complete. The remaining copy is:

"But even worse than displaying the copyrighted trick on the Internet, Teller claims Bakardy is also trying to peddle the secret behind the illusion ... for $3,050 a pop.

Now, Teller's suing for copyright infringement ... demanding a court order to block Bakardy from selling the trick, and ever performing it again.

Teller is also suing for unspecified damages."
critter
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From the courthousenews article:
"The lawsuit doesn't reveal Teller's full name, another component of the duo's shtick."

This Nick Divito feller could have done a bit more homework on that one Smile
"The fool is one who doesn't know what you have just found out."
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Jonathan Townsend
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Quote:
On 2012-04-13 12:32, Kent Wong wrote:
... However, haven't Penn & Teller exposed a number of effects themselves? ...


Kent, have a closer look at the items they perform where some form of exposure is going on. Some of the items are of their own design like "blastoff" and their cups and balls routine routine for two characters, four hands, one juggler and some clear cups avoids exposure by distracting the mind of the audience from what's being shown and/or told.

In general the "you too" argument is a fallacy. Better to leave the tricks you see performed alone unless their inventor has given it into our literature. Then simple courtesy dictates how to handle situations where you are both working for the same market.
...to all the coins I've dropped here
Slim King
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What goes around....
THE MAN THE SKEPTICS REFUSE TO TEST FOR ONE MILLION DOLLARS.. The Worlds Foremost Authority on Houdini's Life after Death.....
Jonathan Townsend
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Quote:
On 2012-04-15 22:50, Slim King wrote:
What goes around....


...here often will be just as vague, unhelpful and pointless next time it types around too.

P&T are out there working and improving the public perception of magic and magicians. They do original material. The item in question is a copyright protected play using set/props/script. Is there something about respecting the craft and upping the game out of the grab bag of toys and into to legitimate theater folks find offensive?
...to all the coins I've dropped here
Slim King
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Perhaps you missed the endless threads on P&T's exposures. No need to do it all again. Karmetic Probabilities aside ... I hate exposure of any kind... Always have!!! Their exposures have been many. They have exposed things they didn't invent... Bad boys of magic.... Live by the sword..... Smile
THE MAN THE SKEPTICS REFUSE TO TEST FOR ONE MILLION DOLLARS.. The Worlds Foremost Authority on Houdini's Life after Death.....
pabloinus
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This issue is not about exposing, rather somebody selling Teller's trick and routine. Something different.
Terry Holley
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Quote:
On 2012-04-15 00:01, Jonathan Townsend wrote:
Quote:
On 2012-04-13 12:32, Kent Wong wrote:
... However, haven't Penn & Teller exposed a number of effects themselves? ...


Kent, have a closer look at the items they perform where some form of exposure is going on. Some of the items are of their own design like "blastoff" and their cups and balls routine routine for two characters, four hands, one juggler and some clear cups avoids exposure by distracting the mind of the audience from what's being shown and/or told.

In general the "you too" argument is a fallacy. Better to leave the tricks you see performed alone unless their inventor has given it into our literature. Then simple courtesy dictates how to handle situations where you are both working for the same market.


Sorry. Jonathan. Their cups and balls is exposure any way you try to "load" it.

Terry
Co-author with illusionist Andre' Kole of "Astrology and Psychic Phenomena."
Terry Holley
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There are at least 2 other magicians performing the rose/flower illusion on YouTube.

Terry
Co-author with illusionist Andre' Kole of "Astrology and Psychic Phenomena."
Jonathan Townsend
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Quote:
On 2012-04-18 21:25, Terry Holley wrote:...their cups and balls routine routine for two characters, four hands, one juggler and some clear cups avoids exposure by distracting the mind of the audience from what's being shown and/or told....


I was at Tannen's when this matter was brought up in around 1980. The question came up whether audiences which had seen P&T would respond differently to a performance of the single performer routine using those same sleights discussed by P&T. Some folks came back after an afternoon of busking and claimed that the trick worked just same as before. Has anyone been busted doing the Vernon routine because folks saw P&T's show? Real question and something to discuss there. Experiment will tell.

A separate topic is use without permission if a piece developed by Teller way back when the were in the Asparagus Repertory Company and they brought to magic camp that evening they performed. Both the needle trick and the shadow trick. The Shadow trick was later written up as a play and filed for copyright as a dramatic work. Using that work without permission is like putting on a play without securing the rights. Not good. Selling equipment so others can go performing a work without first gaining permission to produce the work is ... awkward at best and likely its own criminal act.
...to all the coins I've dropped here
indec
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I develoment by my own similar trick, named "Leaf Drop"

At beginning put a flower with the vase, draw back of this with marker a flower with petals, vase, stem and leafs in easel and cardboar. cut with knife the differents parts of the flower on paper and drop it in real flower, next week I put it on you tube under the name "Leaf Drop", regards,


Hitchcock

indec55@gmail.com
mumford
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Indec, I've developed a book/movie project that's 99.99% "Hunger Games" but have changed the name to "Starving Games"
Dannydoyle
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Does any layman leave a Penn and Teller show knowing how to do the Cups and Balls?

The most offensive part of that routine is the "exposure" of the false transfer. What other famous magician did that exposure and is famous for it and is touted as the best cups and balls routine by so many? It is duplicated by many and the basis for many others. His name escapes me for the moment, hmmm maybe someone can help me.

I dislike selective outrage.
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Payne
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Quote:
On 2012-04-20 10:38, Dannydoyle wrote:
Does any layman leave a Penn and Teller show knowing how to do the Cups and Balls?

The most offensive part of that routine is the "exposure" of the false transfer. What other famous magician did that exposure and is famous for it and is touted as the best cups and balls routine by so many? It is duplicated by many and the basis for many others. His name escapes me for the moment, hmmm maybe someone can help me.

I dislike selective outrage.


Never say Die Danny, or was it Day? Nevermind. I'm off to get me a Vernon soda Smile
"America's Foremost Satirical Magician" -- Jeff McBride.
GaryLee
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I don't see how Teller's copyright is going to legally stop someone from selling the method. Unless Teller has a patent on it, Teller has no case as far as anyone selling the method. Copying the routine would be infringing on his copyright, but making enough changes to the routine will get anyone cleared of any copyright violations.

I think Teller has a good case as far as copyright infringment in regards to the performance of the illusion, but it'll be interresting to see if he'll be able to legally stop the guy from selling the method.
critter
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Some folk just aren't content if they aren't spreading discontent.
"The fool is one who doesn't know what you have just found out."
~Will Rogers
Terry Holley
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Quote:
On 2012-04-20 10:38, Dannydoyle wrote:
Does any layman leave a Penn and Teller show knowing how to do the Cups and Balls?

The most offensive part of that routine is the "exposure" of the false transfer. What other famous magician did that exposure and is famous for it and is touted as the best cups and balls routine by so many? It is duplicated by many and the basis for many others. His name escapes me for the moment, hmmm maybe someone can help me.

I dislike selective outrage.


I have not asked a layperson the question you ask above, so I cannot answer. But it is my opinion that even if they don't know how to "do" the cups and balls, they have an understanding of how it is done after viewing Penn amd Teller's presentation. It may be confusing and hard to understand the moves in order to replicate them, but a viewer certainly is shown that there are loads in the pockets (or somewhere else) and the viewer is shown how and when the loads are made. Just because the patter is fast and confusing doesn't mean that the basis of the trick isn't exposed.

I really do not understand how any magician can say, after watching the routine, that it doesn't expose the effect.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8osRaFTtgHo&feature=related

Perhaps I am biased because of my interest in actual crystal cup routines.

As far as the Vernon routine goes, that is one part of it that not every magician is sold on, and can be worked around.

Terry
Co-author with illusionist Andre' Kole of "Astrology and Psychic Phenomena."
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