I've seen the old Subterfuge and thought it looked great, but apparently there has been improvements made on the latest version. Very visual magic and they say that the ring isn't fragile like a PK ring. Thoughts?

http://www.preceptmagic.com/product/subterfuge-magic-system


here's an old review that seems to have a lot of people happy with it.


http://www.themagiccafe.com/forums/viewt......tart=300

I have both. New release has both good and not so good, in my opinion. I will try to compare.

Old: The old version has more info by just a little, but it has a pamphlet included inside the DVD case for quick access to remind new people how to use this with out going to the DVD. That was a nice addition when I got this back when it first came out. Dvd is pretty complete and easy to understand, with good and simple instruction. Gimmicks are well made but slightly weaker then the newer version, and the ring is small. (yes I got the large, still too small for my fingers) and looks cheap. (just being honest here)

23 minute dvd
3 vanish types
3 ditch types
3 Performances of both vanish and ditches together
3 basic tricks
1 'hexagon'
1 'square'
1 coin (special and mildly common, you might have one)
Assorted items (being vague here)
Ring
Pamphlet

New: Less info on the DVD but that should really not be an issue. No pamphlet. Square gimmick is not 'Packaged' as well as the original in my opinion. But the Hexagon is way better made this time around. Both seem stronger then the original. Ring looks MUCH better this time, but still to small (large one this time too)

15 minute dvd
3 vanish types
3 ditch types
Performances of both vanish and ditches together
2 basic tricks
1 'hexagon'
1 'square'
Assorted items (being vague here)
3 coins (only one special and very common)
Ring


So, remembering that you are buying a 'System' here, only the basics need explained and it does that well. Old and New are virtually the same, so if you already own this I really don't think you need to buy it again. Unless you want the better looking ring. Rings need one more size I think.... Extra large. I SHOULD mention I wear rings on my middle fingers. But there is a solution I will share: Buy Garrett Thomas's Banded in addition to SMS. It looks AWESOME. It comes in seven sizes and works PERFECTLY with SMS. Plus you remove doubt about the ring (if there was any) by doing Banded.

The SMS system was a pretty cool item when I first bought it 6 or 7 years ago, it still is now. Still relevant, still useful, still fun. Easy to use, and darn visual. It is not a bad purchase at all, however the new version offered me nothing new save a better ring (That I cant use) and slightly more strength. But for someone new, it will be quite a good purchase..


Judah

Thank you so much for the review. I will see about adding an XL ring. What size would we be talking? The sizes now are S-6.5 M-9.5 L-12.5. Also, I will pass along the info on the square. We are always looking to improve. Just a side note- we are selling each item individually this time around in case you want more than one of a certain piece to perform with. Also, if the pamphlet was of more help before than we can look into adding it again as well.
We are open to any suggestions and have the same level of customer support now as we did before so please don't hesitate to contact us.

23MM (14) would prolly be the size choice I would go with. I am not a big guy and it fits perfectly on my middle finger. For Banded I use 24mm though.
The pamphlet was just nice to have so I didn't have to load up the DVD. But that was back before I knew how to use it.


-J-

We are looking into adding an XL ring in the future. Thank you for the suggestion and I will let everyone know when/if these become available.

Just for fun we posted the old demo video from 2005 on our site for anyone that wants to watch it. It has street footage and a kick butt song that the new one doesn't have
http://www.preceptmagicshop.com/servlet/StoreFront

This is the link to the new one which is just talking mostly about the changes.
http://www.preceptmagic.com/product/subterfuge-magic-system

Update:
Precept Magic will exchange your Subterfuge ring for another size if you order one and it does not fit just like we did before. Let me know if you have any questions and I am looking forward to and encourage your reviews and feedback.

The web site is kind of vague as to what items you get with each option. I really wish there was an old-fashioned magic shop around here so I could get more information about the "system".

Guess I've been disappointed too many times after receiving other nebulous "systems" and discovering that they didn't contain anything close to what I thought they would after all.

Thank you.

Jim

PM me and I will be more specific. It's hard to guage what to say without giving away too much information but giving enough to explain what you are getting. I think the reason we have to be so vague these days is that a lot of people are not honest and don't respect the designers and inventors of the effects and if you give too much away those dishonest people can steal and reproduce your product without buying it and giving that due respect to the creator. It is sad but true.

I wanted to check in and let everyone know that I am always available for any questions on the threads as well as I do check them daily. I have been getting a ton of PMs with some fantastic questions and some amazing input and praise. Keep them coming and I will answer all questions as quickly as I can. Questions about performing and ideas are great to post publicly as other SMS users have many more applications than we could ever come up with on our own and the ideas start flowing when people start discussing and brainstorming together. There are also tons of threads from the first release in 2005-2006 that are out there that have amazing ideas and reviews if you want to google it. I posted some old reviews on the 'Subterfuge Magic System' thread in 'nothing up my sleeve' if you want to check out some detailed reviews. Thanks for all of the support.

Im sorry.... correction- The reviews are in 'tricks and effects' not nothing up my sleeve.

I have been getting a lot of questions about converting ring sizes so I am going to break down the sizes and hopefully it helps a bit.

SMALL RING-
Diameter- 17.13mm
Circumference- 53.4mm
US size- 6 3/4
Brittish size- N 1/2
French size- between 54 and 55 1/4
German size- between 17 and 17 1/4
Japanese size- between 13 and 14
Swiss size- between 14 and 15 1/4


MEDIUM RING-
Diameter- 19.62mm
Circumference- 60.9mm
US size- 9 3/4
Brittish size- between T and T 1/2
French size- between 61 1/2 and 62 3/4
German size- between 19 1/2 and 20
Japanese size- between 19 and 20
Swiss size- between 21 1/2 and 22 3/4

LARGE RING-
Diameter- 22.1mm
Circumference- 68.5mm
US size- 12 3/4
Brittish size- Z 1/2
French size- a little bigger than a 68 3/4
German size- between 21 3/4 and 22
Japanese size- between 26 and 27
Swiss size- a little bigger than a 28 3/4


I hope this helps. Let me know if anyone needs anymore help with sizes.

I have the original subterfuge and just purhcased subterfuge 2.0. It is a terrific system once you learn the moves.
Michael

Michael, do you just do the effects mentioned on the video or have you come up with more applications? I know that many people use it for cups and balls, fire effects, PK effects, mentalism, coin in bottle, etc,. I would love to hear what you are doing with it. Also, have you used both systems together to increase its versatility?

Buddha Stephy,

I have not thought about doing that. It is a versitle, utility item that is very well made. I will watch the new DVD tonight.

Best wishes,
Michael

The video just has the few applications that were on the original. It doesn't have any of the other stuff that other people use it for on there. We were going to included some of those applications but decided to just go with a few uses and let the magician come up with the rest. I think Kenny actually says that on the video at one point.
Try working with the two systems together and let me know what you come up with.

Lunatik wrote a great review in tricks and effects on the Subterfuge thread. Go check it out along with all of the reviews from the original release.

Thank you so much for the detailed and honest review. I already have the older version & this review has been of great help. Also thank you for the very nice tip/ suggestion of using 'Banded'.

I am the DIY kind of guy. I love to experiment and improve upon existing props for my own personal use. Long back I made the requisite improvements.

BuddhaStephy only: Here is one improvement that I made which helped a great deal in the smooth functioning of the main prop. By adding just 1mm thick spongy material sandwiched on both sides (between the Phantom and the outer covering) has helped in creating a natural cavity for the coin (this happens due to the Phantom's great force ) and thus obviously helps greatly in reducing noise as well as in smoother movement of the prop when sliding over the table top. Try it out and see the wonderful result for yourself.



Sure, I will certainly purchase as and when the need arises.


P.S. Sorry I will not be entertaining any PM's relating to the improvements made by me. Thank you for your understanding.