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DJ Trix
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Zipper, what season was it from? Any ideas?
Steven Youell
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Quote:
On 2012-05-29 20:46, Billy-one wrote:
I ask because a stacked deck would not (or should not) have a noticeable arrangement nowadays (nobody really rocking the si-stebbin anymore).

Yowser! You're very, very wrong. I use it every show. It's my memorized stack. I can open a new deck and shuffle into Si Stebbins in less than 30 seconds. And a fair number of the effects in my lecture notes use it. And... not once has someone noticed it. Not even a magician.

So while some are arguing the advantages of a mem deck over a Si Stebbins stack--- I HAVE BOTH!

SEY
The Burnaby Kid
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If a deck is cyclical, it means that there's a set system to get from one card to the next, and that it wraps around from the end back to the beginning. As such, memdecks can be considered cyclical if you've got them memorized by their 1-52 index number.
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Billy-one
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That is what a mem deck is, as far as Im concerned. The tameriz and Aronson stack as are such, the BCS is also. There for you can corner short the first card and with one cut you can negate all previous straight cuts.

Billy
Billy-one
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Mr. Youell,

You know how much I respect your work, but I have to disagree with anyone that would state a SS stack is as strong as a randomized mem deck. Granted, with some audience managment the SS stack can withstand a bit of inspection or negate inspection all together, but a "random" mem deck can be fully inspected without detection of any sort of mathamatical or 1,2,3, order.

Billy
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Quote:
On 2012-05-30 00:29, Justin W. wrote:
Quote:
Is that your definition of cyclical?


It's the traditional definition. Cycling banks of cards.

I don't recall Tamariz ever referring to his stack as cyclical (at least not in Mnemonica), but if he has I'm not sure why. Yes, if we're going by your latter definition the order of a deck of cards is cyclical. But that applies to ANY order, not just a stack. This is the first time I've ever encountered someone specifically referring to a mem deck as cyclical.


Well, guess you learned something tonight...becuse it is deffinitly cyclical. You can straight cut the deck as many times as you like allowing new banks to be made but with one additional straight cut the deck will be back in mem deck order from 1-52 making it cyclical.

Billy
Justin W.
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Quote:
allowing new banks to be made


Huh?

1. Memorized decks do not consist of the cyclical banks that I was referring to.

8/K/3/10/2/7/9/5/Q/4/A/6/J

That is a bank that is cycled four times.

2. No new orders are created when you cut a deck. Consequently, no "new banks." In fact, that defies the very definition of cyclical.

Calling a memorized deck cyclical is like referring to the double turnover as "The Two As One Flip Over." Sure, it technically describes what's going on, but literally no one calls it that. See the confusion?

Although in your original post you say that both Tamariz and Aronson refer to their stacks as cyclical. If you could point out where, that'd be great.
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Quote:
Well, guess you learned something tonight...


Yes. I learned that you call mem decks cyclical stacks.
Steven Youell
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Quote:
On 2012-05-30 00:52, Billy-one wrote:
You know how much I respect your work, but I have to disagree with anyone that would state a SS stack is as strong as a randomized mem deck. Granted, with some audience management the SS stack can withstand a bit of inspection or negate inspection all together, but a "random" mem deck can be fully inspected without detection of any sort of mathamatical or 1,2,3, order.

Billy-- disagree away. Let me counter:

1) If you give a mem deck to someone to inspect, they can shuffle it.
2) If you give a SS deck to someone they can shuffle it.

No difference.

1) If you let an audience member visually inspect a mem deck, you're doing something wrong.
2) If you let an audience member visually inspect a SS deck, you're doing something wrong.

No difference.

I could go on, but...

I think what you're concerned with is that the audience might notice the alternating colors.

In 20 years I've never had that happen once. Not once. And I'm sure others could achieve the same results.

SEY

P.S. I can get into my mem stack in 30 seconds from NDO. Can you? LOL
Billy-one
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Mr. Youell,

Lol, I agree with you fully....Im just saying the OP said that he found it hard to imagine the original effect he described could be done with a stacked deck, as the spectators would notice the stack if dealt face up. Again, I don't do stack work outside of the BCS but I have done a lot of reading about stacks and have memorized both the tameriz and aronson stack but never really had a chance to use them so both have been long forgotten (full disclosure I never had them commited enough to effectivly perform with them).

I really have no concern about an audience noticing a pattern, becuse if I used a SS stack I would just not let them look at it. However, outside of being able to set the stack from NDO (can be done with the tameriz stack, btw) I cant see any great benafit outside of the ease to learn the stack.

Billy

p.s. I can go to the can for 10 minutes to set up my stack, lol (not so practical)
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Oh,

and I henestly thought the SS stack was not used anymore, but then again I have not talked to another magician in real life for many years.

Billy
Steven Youell
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Quote:
On 2012-05-30 01:30, Billy-one wrote:
I cant see any great benefit outside of the ease to learn the stack.


1) All the power of a Memorized Stack.
2) All the power of a Si Stebbins Stack.
3) Set up right in front of the audience without going to the can.

There ya go!

SEY
Steve Haynes
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I can see Stevens points,thats for sure!

SS order in 30 seconds....I use Darwins idea(secret) all the time!
Have a spectator think of a card,then hand the deck to them to remove the card as I step way back and have them place it in their pocket.
Now come forward,take the deck and case it,as I hand it back(nothing new)build up and reveal!
This type of effect is perfect for SS because the spectator is to busy searching for their card,so they can't see the forrest because of the trees.
Im also in a position to do many other things,which is great from new deck order.

But I also use a MD that is not SS.
I like to do nice clean spreads and perform effects such as triumph as cleanly as possible while keeping control of my stack and for me personally,i prefer a non sequential stack(SS) Smile .

Some prefer MD only,some SS,others SS is their MD.

I like both a Sequential Stack and a MD,just not together which is based on what and how I do things.that work for me.

To each their own!

Back on topic,i did not see the CA video,but regardless of who it is,the first thing comes to mind,is the fella who named the number.
that's how I would do it for a TV special!
Akal Singh
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Quote:
On 2012-05-30 00:10, Billy-one wrote:
"[I]f you consider cyclical as Tameriz and Aronson do then their stacks are in fact cyclical.


Wrong on two counts, and within such a short statement. Nice. Mnemonica is not considered cyclical and in fact is not cyclical.

Mnemonica page 7, Section: NONPERIODICAL NUMERICAL DECKS

"With this complex name we'll designate those decks in which, without being cyclical, each card is identified by a number, according to its position in the stack. The advantages are enormous in contrast to cyclical decks (like rosary decks)... The following two types of stacks fall into this category.
DISGUISED ARITHMETICAL DECKS
[section follows]
THE MNEMONIC DECK
...the thought of arranging the cards without a suit rotation or series of values learned by rote or by aid of simple memory systems."

What you and Burnaby Kid are calling "cycle" is simply the order of any objects that can be put in some order, whether lined up, stacked up, or otherwise arranged. If you disturb a stack of books by only by repeatedly splitting it at any point into two groups, switching the groups, and then putting them back together; you will always be able to split the stack where "Atlas Shrugged," the orignal bottom book, meets "Modern Coin Magic," the original top, switch the two halves, and put them back together to return them to original order. That a certain order is in its order is the law of identity, not the definition of cycle.

A cycle, on the other hand, repeats. For example:

Mnemonica page 5, Section: THE MATHEMATICAL DECK

"the set up by adding five to the value of one card to determine the value of the next, while rotating through suits... commonly referred to in our literature as the Si Stebbins system."

Mnemonica is the cousin of Stay stack, which is an order and it's mirror, also not a cycle.

-Akal Singh

p.s. Steve Beam can rock a Si Stebbins stack like Mt. Rushmore.
The Burnaby Kid
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Quote:
On 2012-05-30 03:02, Akal Singh wrote:
What you and Burnaby Kid are calling "cycle" is simply the order of any objects that can be put in some order, whether lined up, stacked up, or otherwise arranged. If you disturb a stack of books by only by repeatedly splitting it at any point into two groups, switching the groups, and then putting them back together; you will always be able to split the stack where "Atlas Shrugged," the orignal bottom book, meets "Modern Coin Magic," the original top, switch the two halves, and put them back together to return them to original order. That a certain order is in its order is the law of identity, not the definition of cycle.


I can concede whatever point people want to make on a semantic level. I've heard the terms "sequential stack" and "cyclical stack" used interchangeably, and it didn't really bother me much because of what it means to deal with such a stack pragmatically -- you want a pattern that continues throughout the whole deck and wraps around, so that a cut doesn't change much. Of course, a memdeck contains such a system (the index of the card after "n" is "(n mod 52) + 1", or something similar) but what separates one card from the next isn't easily perceivable from the identity of the card itself.

Whatever, I think the point is moot. Si Stebbins is fine. If you have a card selected from a spread (free choice) and you show that you can determine what it is (via naming it outright or else finding it some other way), most people are going to think "marked deck" rather than "stacked deck" if they put their minds to it. And it would be a fair assumption, as a stacked deck is usually going to require the magician introducing their own cards, which could very well be marked. Thankfully, even if you're using the lowly Si Stebbins arrangement it's a trivial matter to destroy the stack and then let somebody else keep the deck. Also, any card man worth his salt ought to be able to handle a situation if they suspected a stack (or similar) in the first place and demanded a chance to examine or shuffle the cards.
JACK, the Jolly Almanac of Card Knavery, a free card magic resource for beginners.
Steven Keyl
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Quote:
On 2012-05-29 22:00, Billy-one wrote:
Mr. Keyl,

The Aronson and Tamariz stack is cyclical. I don't disagree that the SS stack is good, but any mem deck will be better as it can do any and everything the SS stack can plus more. I cant imagine anyone would argue that fact, that is unless those arguing are not fully aware of the capabilites of a mem deck.

Billy


Billy,

As has been alluded elsewhere in this thread, by cyclical we mean a periodic repetition of values into 4 banks. By that definition, neither Aronson nor Tamariz are cyclical. The mem deck I use is Doug Dyment's QuickStack. It is a cyclic stack that is easily learned and, once memorized, is just as powerful as either Aronson or Tamariz stacks. It does not have strict alternation of reds/blacks and from a spread looks quite random.

The more important point I'd like to make here is that the non-cyclic stacks are not inherently better than the cyclic stacks, they are just different. When looking to first memorize a deck it would behoove one to look at the advantages and disadvantages of any given stack. Look at the built-in effects of each stack and see if those effects are worthwhile. The Aronson stack, for example, contains a number of interesting built-in poker deals. Tamariz has a host of built in effects (see Mnemonica).

All cyclic stacks have inherent built-in features absent in non-cyclic stacks, as Andrew mentioned earlier in this thread. For me, being able to execute a single faro and have every card in the deck right next to its mate is a powerful feature. I've got several effects that I perform based on this idea alone. One more faro and I've got all cards arranged in four-of-a-kind clusters. I have several more effects based on that idea, etc.

In the end, any mem deck is going to allow you to produce miracles you wouldn't be able to otherwise. My main point is that both cyclic and non-cyclic stacks have their place in the world of mem deck magic.
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zipper
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Allow me to clarify my prearranged deck reference. An ACAAN with which I'm familiar uses a set stock of A-K of hearts (though it could be any of the 4 suits) planted in the deck with the deck in the case. Through uses of magician's force, coupled with some free choices, a card and number from 1-52 are selected. The cards are removed from the case and counted individually to the selected number. The chosen card is at the correct location. Magician bows to thundering applause. However, the cards could not be dealt face-up because of the A-K stock. It didn't seem that C. Angel was using a prearranged deck.

Zipper
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Angel is famous for his use of video editing to achieve an optimal effect. Camera cuts at strategic moments allow you to see something that is much cleaner than it actually is. It is unlikely you will be able to suss out the method short of watching the full unedited shot, which no one around here would have access to.

My best advice to you is to research ACAAN effects until you find one that fits your presentation and handling. Then start practicing.
Steven Keyl - The Human Whisperer!

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Best impromptu progressive Ace Assembly ever!

"If you ever find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause, and reflect." --Mark Twain
Steven Keyl
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Angel is famous for his use of video editing to achieve an optimal effect. Camera cuts at strategic moments allow you to see something that is much cleaner than it actually is. It is unlikely you will be able to suss out the method short of watching the full unedited shot, which no one around here would have access to.

My best advice to you is to research ACAAN effects until you find one that fits your presentation and handling. Then start practicing.
Steven Keyl - The Human Whisperer!

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Best impromptu progressive Ace Assembly ever!

"If you ever find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause, and reflect." --Mark Twain
1tepa1
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No spectator who is given just a glance of the deck (or even a bit longer stare) is capable of seeing that each card has three more than the previous. When they look for "orded" they look to see something like 12345... or the four aces together.
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