I've seen Chad's video and thought it was too "flourious." Obvious he's VERY skilled and showing off that skill.

The thought that came to mind is that we should be doing our best to control our audience's ATTENTION and, with a nod to Al Schneider, ASSUMPTIONS. Not just showing "Look what I can do."

In a David Neighbor's Workshop, one of the participants vanished a coin. It was good sleight of hand. But David made the HUGE point: They've GOTTA SEE THE COIN (!) before you vanish it! Control of ATTENTION. I think this lines up with what Doc is saying.

For my "real" job, as some of you know, I'm a piano teacher. And some of my students are the best Advanced players in the world. We're talking about making Beethoven Sonatas, Chopin Ballades and the Transcendental Etudes look easy. I have to constantly remind them that even if they can play several big chord progressions quickly or lightening fast scales, they need to let the musical impact REGISTER with the audience. So the audience "gets it" and doesn't feel like the performer is just showing off and PUSHING the music at them.

I think this is VERY relevant to magic performance.

Interesting Atom. My original question was whether anyone here was doing this stuff any better as to being entertaining, basically with whatever they're doing in this stuff. I'm just saying.

Hey, do you have a student that is not one of the world's best, that better allows the "impact to register" in the music, and does that then make what he does more entertaining overall to an audience than your super-advanced students? *Interetingly, I used to have a big fan of mine when I covered sports in NYC that was a pretty well noted concert pianist, a Bela Syzlagyi...Ever hear of him?

Also in another branch of entertainment like comedy, it's a long way from a Henny Youngman to a Rodney Dangerfield doing pretty much the same sort of one-liner delivery. Certainly Henny was more deliberate and not as skilled but do you think Dangerfield was a bit too "flurious" in his delivery. He did seem much more impactful. Can we see these same nuances in magicians, can we appreciate them being what they are without reducing them for what they are not?

MB, As you most likely know, some of the world's best musicians the world knows nothing about.

And there is a time and place for "flouious."

The Youngman / Dangerfield comparsion is interesting as each had / has their own pace; yet with both their humour is so witty, it kinda catches up with you. It's also the "buy-in" of each one's personality.

Atom3339
I must say, you are really hitting my note.
Your comment, "So the audience 'gets it' and doesn't feel like the performer is just showing off and PUSHING the music at them," captures some of my comments with great accuracy. You are a pro. You "Get it." I mean you really get it. Others just don't seem to get it. They accuse me of saying I am right and no one else is. I think they are doing that. That is, they accuse me of what they do. That is common in our society. I wish I could chat with you over a beer sometime and talk about life. I think I would learn a great deal. I sincerely appreciate your positon in the world.
Al Schneider

That may be generally true in the performing arts.
There's a BBC audio special on the background/history of Bowie's Ziggy Stardust album where those involved discuss the construction and context of the work.
What you learn is up to you. What you put in front of audiences is up to you as well. Got choices?

More to the point - what reaction do you want?

Thanks Atom, that sounds a lot like "To each his own."

On another note, you seem to have won a good seal of approval here from the center of the cornfield, good luck with that.

You're right, MB!

Thank you, Mr. Schneider. It would great to have a beer with you and talk shop.

This is a good discussion and I'm glad it hasn't become sidetracked. Great contributions from so many.

Hi Tom I am glad you Listened In the Workshop!:) I steal remember Al's Lecture At Magic in the Rockery's I think it was around 30 years ago! ( Do you remember AL ? ) ( and yea I know I am showing my Age ! ) You had The 3 cards That showed the 3 parts of A Ball vanish under a Cup! Part 1 They saw The ball In front Of The cup! Part 2 They saw you put the ball under the cup! Part 3 you lifted The cup to show the ball GONE!!!

And then you said " If the layman Misses Any one of these 1- 2 or 3 There is no magic!!! " That hit me SO HARD!!! It became apart of me! And I am Always Preaching The Holy word S-L-O-W D-O-W-N !!! They Have to know what you are doing, Or THERE Is No MAGIC!!! And I never got to say this So Thanks so much Al ! You Where One of the People that Change my life!

I remember being told that myself, "Slow Down" son. I ran into Rocco's magic stand in an airport and I was doing some effect. I got halfway though it and he stopped me to slow it down, said many of the same things you said David that came from Al. I've been slowing down ever since. No need to do it fast, not if you understand what you're doing and understand how the specs comprehend the moments. It's about understanding the power.

Yea I think A lot of The BIG boys All know the same thing! And I think a lot of it comes Mostly from the
OLD SCHOOL !!! The old masters know what they talking About!!! That's Why they got to Be The OLD masters !!! Hello !!!

What's interesting is I was just reading Vernon's Malini book and it talks about slowing down. Then I come on and see the same stuff on here. Guess it must be a good idea, then

"Oldies but Goodies."

No it's Not a Good Idea !!! It's A GREAT IDEA !!! A-MEN!!!

Yeah, AMEN is right David. Truly takes some getting used to though.

Whenever I do my MB Transpo or ReVisiTed, etc. for people (and I do it all the time), I always present it pretty deliberate and slow...no need to rush because I want them to follow and not miss a thing. Since better appreciating this train of thought and action, it has turned my tricks into magic. It's a really wonderful feeling as you come to better understand all the psychology behind what you're doing as it applies to the attention of the spectator.

Now, I'm not any such "Old Master" but I know this well enough too by now. Mix it with a few drops of confidence in what you do and you become a Wizard at this stuff. There are other elements and levels to it as well, you see some of it in the way Ponta presents magic in such an elegant and graceful way, no words, storyline or patter really necessary. And to note, some will enjoy and see magic, some more specific others will more specifically analyze and perhaps simply see perhaps moreso only great skill. And with that, to each his own, right Atom?

I truly think in these sorts of things that the immediacy of a raging applause-meter is much more important than the backwater of a survey, or something like that.

David Neighbors
Yes, I remember.
But not very well.
I think you were the guy I told was one of the top coin guys in the country.
Is that right?
I also remember Paul Harris being there.
We were both interviewed by the local newspaper.
I have that saved away.
Paul went one and on.
I did Matrix and talked for just a bit.
When the newspaper came out his picture was cut of at the head.
Then, the writer described what Paul did but said I did it.
Hmmmmmm.



Peter Pitchford
Just wonderen.
Could you restate your initial post on this thread?
I suspect it might be phrased a bit differently.

Al Schneider

Yea Al,
That's just about it! But back then I was steal forming My theories On Coin magic, And any magic for that matter! And your Little talk on theory in your Lecture Helped Me Out With it! So I just wanted to say THANK YOU!!!

The discussion is helpful.

I remember entering a contest at the local level. My theme was the hyperactive magician. Apparently I went so fast the judges "didn't get it". I too have slowed down.

Last night "entered another local level close up contest". I started the routine talking about changes over the years. Actually I opened with a piece of classical music on my harmonica. I then picked up a raiser and talked about preparing for a show. Years ago, I had trouble getting my side burns even. (bringing up raiser to the sides of my face)..pause...and lifting raiser to the top of my head..."These days, I have to go a bit higher.". The harmonica and razor get two things done..They gather the people into an audience through laughter, and show my hands "empty", without having said.."Nothing in either side of my hand".

Oh what fun it is to play.... My early attempts at coin magic were a nitemare..Speaking of Nitemares. I planned but left out a bit...
Here's another classic...The Professor's Nitemare...pause...Dai Vernon, the Professor ...at the Magic Castle... changing a coin to a cigar...WHAT do you mean, the Castle is going non-smoking!

Oh what fun it is to play.

Harris
proud member of ring 129 and 2100

Hey, y'know as to music here, not for nothing but I remember when people called Rock & Roll noise and not music. That was always older folk (aka Old Masters) saying that. Same thing today with Rap, etc. The more conservative want things to stay as they are, as they were because that's where they see it making the most sense to them and most times for others. Of course that is a point of view that we not only live out in magic but in politics, religion, in life. There are standards and gatekeepers to be engaged, even battled and possibly eclipsed on the journey while moving forward outside the norm - it can be a struggle alright. Some bits & pieces will remain for sure as guide posts along the way but usually on the way to being a bit more than whatever it was before - Think Ponta the Smith points such a way moreso than not and it's beginning to take hold. Perhaps not from the many cornfields and sons of cornfields out there (Because h*ll no they won't go!) but perhaps from all the outsides beyond.

If I had a harmonica like my friend Harris here and could play it like him, I'd be playing "I Love You Truly" at this point but just for old time sake as I glance back now and again. I'm just sayin'.

Marion, I still think it boils down to the audience's perception. Was the performance TOO fast for the audience to enjoy? Possibly causing CONFUSION? Which we know, as The Professor eloquently stated, is NOT magic? Was the performance TOO slow? Difficult to follow? BORING? In music, we would refer to it as tempo.

I'm not sure about your analogy about Rock and Roll. My understanding is that at the time the older generation did not want to accept it because of its influence on the morals of their children---NOT the sound of the music itself. Same with Rap music. And people just have different tastes in music. NOTE: The advent of Rock and Roll and, later, Rap did not eliminate Classical music, or for that matter, Jazz.

We probably have better Coin Magicians today, in this generation, than ever in the history of the world! And each influenced by their predecessors. They learned their skill from SOMEONE! (Or many ones).

And there are various tastes to our Art. Some may not like Ponta The Smith's short flashy tricks, but can still enjoy (and learn from) his smooth handling. Some may find Al Schneider's approach too slow---but can't deny it REALLY looks like REAL magic. We can learn from his theory behind his presentation.

We can appreciate various approaches and tempi if we choose. And we all can have our personal opinion of what we like best. And what we deem the audience would like best.

There was a post on the forum that made the point that Slydini's Coins Through Table routine---most would consider a Classic---is too long and how to cut parts out to make it shorter. (Hmmmm....maybe Beethoven's Moonlight Sonata is too long and we should make it shorter?) I would argue "What makes YOU (the poster) think Slydini's routine is too long? It worked just fine for him for several years. And I'd rather trust someone who's been doing Coin Magic for 30 years or longer than one that hasn't been "in the trenches" and EARNED their tenure.

Is there room for improvement? My answer would be: "Possibly." Again with my analogy, Can you IMPROVE Moonlight Sonata? I think one would be considered a fool to think so. There is NOT "always room for improvement" IMO.

We are so privileged to have Masters amongst us AND creative up-and-comers. I enjoy learning from all of them.