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helder
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Here's a video of me doing two moves for you to comment and criticize.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U_yAyqEndPw&feature=youtu.be


Thanks
My version of Eddie fetcher "Be Honest What's it?" it's available at Penguin Magic
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Magician Shaun
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Overall it looks perform-able, I just have never been a fan of the up and down hand motion as a cover for the pass. I think it can be done without that and it looks way more natural. It looks like you are shaking the deck, what is the motivation for that?
helder
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Quote:
On 2012-06-05 16:45, Gr8gorilla wrote:
Overall it looks perform-able, I just have never been a fan of the up and down hand motion as a cover for the pass. I think it can be done without that and it looks way more natural. It looks like you are shaking the deck, what is the motivation for that?



My intention it's not shake the deck, but dribble/riffle some cards in the end of the move, wich is done while I relax or turn my body.

The rock I want keep it to a minimum.


Thanks for your comment


ps: I don't do this in performance yet.
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Billy-one
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Helder,

I like the rocking motion of the pass, however I would like to see someone talk within these pass videos. As I have said before, the awkward pause in speach is what I consider the biggest tell in a pass. However, with the rocking...I generally create an offbeat where I will rock back and then right before the on beat I will rock the deck (and my whole body) naturally forward.

I know you may be thinking, that doesn't sound natural....but watch how people laugh and they lean back and when they go back into conversation they relax forward or atleast upright.

Billy

p.s. besides, just do a double undercut
Magician Shaun
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This is what a pass should look like. I watch this video every time I practice the Pass.

http://youtu.be/E1MDCy2VShQ

This video is not performance conditions but in my opinion this guys technique is flawless. If my pass looks this good, I will consider it perfect.
Justin W.
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Quote:
Helder,

I like the rocking motion of the pass, however I would like to see someone talk within these pass videos. As I have said before, the awkward pause in speach is what I consider the biggest tell in a pass. However, with the rocking...I generally create an offbeat where I will rock back and then right before the on beat I will rock the deck (and my whole body) naturally forward.

I know you may be thinking, that doesn't sound natural....but watch how people laugh and they lean back and when they go back into conversation they relax forward or atleast upright.

Billy

p.s. besides, just do a double undercut


But what are the advantages of this rocking action? Why not choose or develop a pass in which the hands remain seemingly at rest? That way you don't always have to rely on an entire body motion to make a pass serviceable.
Steven Youell
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Quote:
On 2012-06-05 23:09, Gr8gorilla wrote:
This is what a pass should look like. I watch this video every time I practice the Pass. This video is not performance conditions but in my opinion this guys technique is flawless. If my pass looks this good, I will consider it perfect.

First, Helder asked for opinions on his pass, so you're kinda derailing the thread.

But since you've done so anyway...

While I'm sure this gentleman is one of the best, I have a question for you:

Have you seen this pass performed from all angles? Have you seen it live? Have you seen it in context? Have you seen it done at the correct frame rate and not a jumpy video?

My point here is that I cannot believe you would decide something is perfect and flawless based ONLY on ONE jumpy video.

So... where else have you seen this specific performer doing this specific pass? Do you have links so I can see the same things?

SEY
p-n_junction
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Could you make a quick video of the pass face down and from different angles?
'casue I'dont like one thing - splitting of the deck in the miidle.
But maybe it's gonna look way more better with a face down card, as a control.
Anyway, I like that you're doing the pass nice, smooth and slow.
Rocking motion is fine, I believe.

DL looks really good.
Ray Tupper.
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I've been trying to keep my left index finger from pointing and moving away from the deck for ages.
I think it looks better if it's static,or hidden.(See Peter Duffie)
As regards the rocking motion,when you're pattering and gesturing during a live performance,the hands would move
naturally and any movement would be concieved as such.
Thanks for posting.
Ray.
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1tepa1
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Steven, do you still have that demo video of your pass somewhere. I think people should see that and then compare it to others.
Magician Shaun
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Steven,

I have no idea who that guy is, I have never seen him. My point is only that if my pass looked that good, which to me looks as if nothing happened, then I would be satisfied with it. I of course would also check all of my angles and not just rely on the perfect one (angle). I simply feel that watching the actions that someone makes while performing a sleight can help me learn how to better perform it. I believe that is true whether I watch a bad version of sleight, learning what not to do, or a good version learning what to do.

Honestly, for all I know, that video could be edited and the performer could really be doing nothing. It is currently my favorite, easily accessible video on the subject. Of course I have not seen yours and I hear it is amazing. I would love to study your pass just as I have studied the one in the video I posted. I have watched it hundreds of times for timing and movements.

Helder,

I honestly think your sleights are good. Certainly good enough to perform, especially with good misdirection. I don't think anyone would ever notice it happen except for magicians. I think it can be better. I think we can always improve. I have to say that as a Magician, if I see a performer rock his hands in that manner, or the index finger shoot out for no reason, I know he did a pass, even if I didn't see it. So for me, the illusion is destroyed. That is one of the hardest things for me right now, retraining the index finger not to extend during the pass.

Steven,

What is your opinion on the perform-ability of Helder's pass? Granted we have not seen it from other angles, nor do we see the rest of his body to know if he is telegraphing the move in other ways, i.e. tensing, or flinching.

Ray,

I have seen some advice that recommends curling the left index finger onto the face of the deck, what I mean is your nail would contact the face of the bottom card, as the packets transpose, it would shift to the upper packet. This prevents the extension and is really difficult for me to perform. I have found that trying not to apply pressure to the face really helps in learning to perform the move from this position.
Billy-one
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Gorilla,

that's the same guy who does the cig penatration that looks so amazing, I belive? Perhaps that's what hes doing with the cards, lol....but seriously, Steve Youell has many good points...also, his pass looks just as good BUT it can be done from more angles.

If you ever happen to stumble upon SEY pass video, you might have a new favorite and a bar that is set at the proper level (good from multiple angles).

Billy

p.s. still sticking with a double undercut
Steven Youell
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Quote:
On 2012-06-06 08:44, Gr8gorilla wrote:
I have no idea who that guy is, I have never seen him.

That's my point. Here is essentially what you said:

1) This is the perfect pass.
2) This is flawless technique.
3) This is exactly what I want mine to look like
4) I base these conclusions all on one, jumpy video that was shot from one angle on YouTube.

See?

SEY
FrenchDrop
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Steven, what's your opinion of the sleights in Helder's video? I personally don't feel qualified to critique them, but you are, and it might help get the thread back on the rails. (Plus, I'm personally interested in discussions of the pass because I don't have one I'm confident with yet.)
"A great magician has said of his profession that its practitioners '… must pound and rack their brains to make the least learning go in, but quarrelling always comes very naturally to them.'” -- Susanna Clarke, Jonathan Strange and Mr Norrell
Steven Youell
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Quote:
On 2012-06-06 13:56, FrenchDrop wrote:
Steven, what's your opinion of the sleights in Helder's video?

First, I don't think it's fair to give critique regarding flaws/tells on this sort of thing in public-- even if it's asked for.

Second, I'm not qualified either until I see is from several angles several times and in different circumstances. I'm surprised that the majority of people on the Café think differently.

Third, most videos on a pass are almost always useless for critique because by the very nature of demonstrating them on video, you're using the exact opposite of a live performance. In performance, the pass is not supposed to be seen or noticed. When you demonstrate them on video, you are literally asking for people to see it. In performance, you don't want anyone to see it. On a video demonstration you want people to see it.

This results in people making a judgement based only on the physical mechanics of the pass, like seeing the halves exchange or an extraneous finger movement. While this could be helpful, it's only a small part of what makes a pass effective.

Fourth, passes of the Classic type that are done today are very far from what the masters had in mind and I tend to agree with their views.

So I abstain. Smile

SEY
MagicofDesperado
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Couple thoughts.

1) the way these pass videos are set up completely Is in violation of how a classic pass is to be done as Steven commented. Also, I don't think riffling etc and toying with the cards before during or after helps. If the riffling is the magic moment that is different. I think it's best to minimize the amount of time both hands mug the deck as well which I often see. Touch 'n go I'd say. Also depends if you're doing a pass as it was originally intended or as a color change. In so much as a classic pass you have to consider from what context it originated and was used. Shifting the cut, in-intransit action and then I think you get closer to the spirit and diabolical subterfuge that it can truly be.

2) I think the Gordon turnover looks good but make sure to turn the single card the exact same way. I could see the difference. Love this double though:)


Dave
Steven Youell
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Quote:
On 2012-06-06 17:40, MagicofDesperado wrote:
The way these pass videos are set up completely is in violation of how a classic pass is to be done as Steven commented.

It's even worse. In terms of passes, I've been criticized for doing things that aren't in this type of pass. And what's funny is that those specific things are taken from Erdnase, Vernon, etc. Hence, one of my hesitations to not post a video for public display.

Quote:
On 2012-06-06 17:40, MagicofDesperado wrote:
Also, I don't think riffling etc and toying with the cards before during or after helps. If the riffling is the magic moment that is different.

In general, I agree. However I have found some exceptions, so I don't think that's a hard and fast rule.

SEY
juggernought
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I can't really comment too much on the pass which you did since context is crucial. However, the handling of the DL is not bad, but in my opinion could be improved. There is a lot of pressure evident in the pinky count and also in the display of the card. The card is visibly bent because of the pressure you are exerting on it. Both of these problems can be fixed by lessening the pressure. A light touch is extremely important in a double turnover (and not just in double turnovers). Remember what the Professor said about a card being a light piece of paper, not a manhole cover.
juggernought
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And also, as already mentioned, make sure you turn over the singles in the same way. You turn the singles over with a light touch. Aim to emulate that with the doubles.
MagicofDesperado
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Personally I wouldn't do the get ready that way also. When I use the Gordon turnover I push off the two cards. Then you're into the turnover before the focus is on the deck. Your way draws focus to the deck before.

I think if you want an accurate technique appraisal of your pass employ a routine so it's contextual. That would go a long way to getting closer to a more accurate critiquing. You've obviously put in a lot of work though, congrats!

Dave
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