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MagicofDesperado
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I'd also be interested in hearing what things you've done Steven that you've been criticized for that you've taken from classic sources. Maybe another thread or through direct messaging?

Dave
The Burnaby Kid
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When doing these sorts of videos, try to keep in mind that you need a viewing angle that's appropriate for how a regular audience is going to see things. Recording from a low angle in front isn't going to be that helpful unless maybe you're doing table-to-table work and you're standing while they're sitting, and their eyes are going to be that low.

Plus, keeping that in mind, in that situation a classic pass or similar is going to be troublesome because in order to get the speed that can make the pass deceptive, a lot of the time the byproduct is a kicking action of the hands underneath the deck. Lower angles have a tendency to expose it.

Finally, try to remember that the packet transposition isn't the most important part of the pass. It's usually helpful to work in a delay after the card is returned but before the pass, and THAT means you'll want to practice how you handle that as well (such as if you're going to enlarge the pinky break, or whatever).
JACK, the Jolly Almanac of Card Knavery, a free card magic resource for beginners.
magicfish
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Quote:
On 2012-06-06 15:02, Steven Youell wrote:
Quote:
On 2012-06-06 13:56, FrenchDrop wrote:
Steven, what's your opinion of the sleights in Helder's video?

First, I don't think it's fair to give critique regarding flaws/tells on this sort of thing in public-- even if it's asked for.

Second, I'm not qualified either until I see is from several angles several times and in different circumstances. I'm surprised that the majority of people on the Café think differently.

Third, most videos on a pass are almost always useless for critique because by the very nature of demonstrating them on video, you're using the exact opposite of a live performance. In performance, the pass is not supposed to be seen or noticed. When you demonstrate them on video, you are literally asking for people to see it. In performance, you don't want anyone to see it. On a video demonstration you want people to see it.

This results in people making a judgement based only on the physical mechanics of the pass, like seeing the halves exchange or an extraneous finger movement. While this could be helpful, it's only a small part of what makes a pass effective.

Fourth, passes of the Classic type that are done today are very far from what the masters had in mind and I tend to agree with their views.

So I abstain. Smile

SEY

Well said.
Steven Youell
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Quote:
On 2012-06-06 23:18, The Burnaby Kid wrote:
Plus, keeping that in mind, in that situation a classic pass or similar is going to be troublesome because in order to get the speed that can make the pass deceptive, a lot of the time the byproduct is a kicking action of the hands underneath the deck.

I really don't think there is such a thing as "The Classic Pass" anymore. What you see now are hybrids that are far from the way the Classic Pass used to be done. Now, the phrase "classic pass" is more of a category referring to moving the top packet to the bottom.

Speed is not necessary to make a pass deceptive. In fact, most people I see using speed are doing it to compensate for the flaws in the hybrids. If you really understand the pass, you should be able to do it just as deceptively slowly as you can quickly. Also, the kicking action can be greatly reduced and sometimes eliminated with the right techniques.

SEY
Steven Youell
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Quote:
On 2012-06-06 22:33, MagicofDesperado wrote:
I'd also be interested in hearing what things you've done Steven that you've been criticized for that you've taken from classic sources. Maybe another thread or through direct messaging?

PM or Skype is best. Don't want to get tarred and feathered... I may be close already! Smile

SEY
The Burnaby Kid
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Quote:
On 2012-06-07 01:36, Steven Youell wrote:
Quote:
On 2012-06-06 23:18, The Burnaby Kid wrote:
Plus, keeping that in mind, in that situation a classic pass or similar is going to be troublesome because in order to get the speed that can make the pass deceptive, a lot of the time the byproduct is a kicking action of the hands underneath the deck.

I really don't think there is such a thing as "The Classic Pass" anymore. What you see now are hybrids that are far from the way the Classic Pass used to be done. Now, the phrase "classic pass" is more of a category referring to moving the top packet to the bottom.


You know, it's amusing how you object to complicating terms when it comes to dealing with the Hofzinser/Herrmann Pass topic, but have no problem complicating terms when it comes to referring to the Classic Pass as a Classic Pass. Is there any possible change you could spare us the unnecessary and arbitrary hair-splitting indulgences? Pretty please?

Quote:
Speed is not necessary to make a pass deceptive.


Speed allows you to minimize the amount of time both hands are in context with the deck. If you can't see how, all other things being equal, that makes the technique more deceptive, then boy oh boy...

Quote:
In fact, most people I see using speed are doing it to compensate for the flaws in the hybrids. If you really understand the pass, you should be able to do it just as deceptively slowly as you can quickly.


The only time I've seen Classic Passes done slowly in a deceptive manner, a larger covering action was required. Some are possible that don't require the awful "going fishing" move, but even the good ones need prolonged contact with the deck and are frequently context-dependent. If that context doesn't fit what one's going for, then growing a pair and being able to adopt the general Top Change approach is more than adequate, but in those cases (all other things being equal) speed is your ally.

Quote:
Also, the kicking action can be greatly reduced and sometimes eliminated with the right techniques.


If the aim is speed in a Classic Pass, then that kick almost invariably comes along with it. It's not necessarily a problem, as physical cover usually takes care of the problem.
JACK, the Jolly Almanac of Card Knavery, a free card magic resource for beginners.
Steven Youell
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Quote:
On 2012-06-07 02:04, The Burnaby Kid wrote:
You know, it's amusing how you object to complicating terms when it comes to dealing with the Hofzinser/Herrmann Pass topic, but have no problem complicating terms when it comes to referring to the Classic Pass as a Classic Pass. Is there any possible change you could spare us the unnecessary and arbitrary hair-splitting indulgences? Pretty please?

So what-- I disagree with you and I get a post like this? Sarcasm, insults, etc? Didn't expect so such animosity.

There are two different categories here: One has to do with ownership of an invention. In other words, the first category has to do with naming something after a person, not using the same words to describe two different sleights. The other has to do with using the same name for sleights that differ substantially in technique. You don't see the difference?

Quote:
On 2012-06-07 02:04, The Burnaby Kid wrote:
Speed allows you to minimize the amount of time both hands are in context with the deck. If you can't see how, all other things being equal, that makes the technique more deceptive, then boy oh boy...

You didn't say "more deceptive". You said "deceptive". And if you don't understand how speed is not necessary to make a pass deceptive, then boy oh boy...

Quote:
On 2012-06-07 02:04, The Burnaby Kid wrote:
The only time I've seen Classic Passes done slowly in a deceptive manner, a larger covering action was required. Some are possible that don't require the awful "going fishing" move, but even the good ones need prolonged contact with the deck and are frequently context-dependent.

Then you're experience is very, very limited. Of course, if you're only basing this on passes you've actually seen and not read about, then you're very limited in other ways too.

Quote:
On 2012-06-07 02:04, The Burnaby Kid wrote:
If the aim is speed in a Classic Pass, then that kick almost invariably comes along with it.

Which "classic pass" are you referring to? What's currently known as the "classic pass" today is, imo, nowhere near what was known as "The Classic Pass" in the times of the masters.

You should calm down a bit. I can hear your blood pressure all the way from here! Smile

SEY
Steven Youell
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Quote:
On 2012-06-06 22:33, MagicofDesperado wrote:
I'd also be interested in hearing what things you've done Steven that you've been criticized for that you've taken from classic sources. Maybe another thread or through direct messaging?

Quote:
On 2012-06-07 01:44, Steven Youell wrote:
PM or Skype is best. Don't want to get tarred and feathered... I may be close already!

Dave: Read below. See what I mean? Tar is being heated up now... One post and I'm a heretic...! Smile
Quote:
On 2012-06-07 02:04, The Burnaby Kid wrote:
You know, it's amusing how you object to complicating terms when it comes to dealing with the Hofzinser/Herrmann Pass topic, but have no problem complicating terms when it comes to referring to the Classic Pass as a Classic Pass. Is there any possible change you could spare us the unnecessary and arbitrary hair-splitting indulgences? Pretty please?

Speed allows you to minimize the amount of time both hands are in context with the deck. If you can't see how, all other things being equal, that makes the technique more deceptive, then boy oh boy...

The only time I've seen Classic Passes done slowly in a deceptive manner, a larger covering action was required.

And that's why I do this stuff in private. I should have known better.

SEY
magicfish
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What about Vernon's Creeping Reverse? It is definitely a classic pass type move done very slowly. although there is definitely top card(s) cover. maybe not pertinent to the discussion.
MagicofDesperado
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It's official! You're a heretic Steven! LOL

Personally I think that speed CAN be an ally but with most of the passes I've seen performed for maximum speed, it actually draws more attention to the action. I have seen slow passes performed and have done a few myself while performing/ experimenting and they can be as deceptive if not moreso in my experience.
Dave
dattyw
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I've just recently seen SEY's pass work, various variation, and it is quite amazing. He showed me from multiple angles, up close, far away, and it blew me away. Fast, slow, no sudden movements, just a little riffle and it's done. I appreciate he is not saying that there is only one way to do the pass correctly, but there are many many ways to do it incorrectly. My two-hand shift is sub-par in fairnes, so maybe everybody's pass would blow me away, I don't know. I do know I was amazed by SEY's work and knew there was something in my pass work I had learned incorrectly. Now to figure that part out.

Good Show,
David
dattyw
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Let me add that skype was much better than I anticipated and I enjoyed it more than just learning from a dvd. Side note.
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