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takeachance Inner circle 3764 Posts |
There seems to be a lack of reviews on this product. The routine sounds wonderful and with Porper being the maker quality must be there. Can anyone jump in with a review or positive/negative of performing this in a close up walk around environment, is it practical ect. Many thanks in advance.
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takeachance Inner circle 3764 Posts |
Perhaps if no one wants to write a review you could PM me your thoughts on this
cheerz |
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Bill Hegbli Eternal Order Fort Wayne, Indiana 22797 Posts |
Maybe the problem is they do not know what your are referring to. I just came from Joe Porper website and there is nothing called Keyfly.
http://www.porperoriginals.com/misc_main_3.html |
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kissdadookie Inner circle 4275 Posts |
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On 2012-06-14 11:25, wmhegbli wrote: But the product does exist, apparently Porper is just not selling it on his site for some reason. |
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takeachance Inner circle 3764 Posts |
Thanks for the reply guys, yes it's a bit of a mystery. A few came up for sale here on the Café so thought someone would have chimed in.
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Pete Biro 1933 - 2018 18558 Posts |
I talked to R. Paul Wilson today an said we need a video of him demonstrating it.
He's going to be in L.A. for a month long one man show in the Fringe Festival. I see it has not been listed on Porper's web site. I will see if I can get it up tomorrow (I need to reach Joe and his webmaster) Also, I don't think he calls it Key Fly, that is a bonus to the main trick.
STAY TOONED... @ www.pete-biro.com
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runawayjag Inner circle 1085 Posts |
It is called Lost Keys aka Key Fly and is essentially John Ramsay's "Hanging Coins," only done with brass housekeys. They keys are the same, in appearance (meaning if this was another coin version, it would not be an "International" version,)and it works pretty much the way you probably think it does. The gimmicks are typically well made, however, I find them very awkward to use by the very nature of their shape. I may have been less than enthusiastic about putting much time in with the set because I don't find any value in doing this particular trick with keys instead of coins. I pretty much tried the gaffs for about an hour and found them a little difficult to work and then put the set aside.
The key case, a squeeze type, is equally awkward to use. The three chains with keys added to the three without keys are just too much content for the case and this makes the routine require a suspicously vigorous shaking for the keys to "reappear." The instructions mention an earlier version that they decided was not as good as the simple version provided and, frankly, I think the early version would have been better and probably worked more smoothly. Ironically, the instructions explaining the routine actually describe using the version not provided! If you follow my writings on various forums and websites you probably realize I am a BIG Porper/Wilson fan. I still think the Terminator Wallet is a sadly neglected coin bending device that is far superior to any others, including the Quantum things, and I still think the Porper/Wilson Cylinder & Coins is one of the very best things released in the last decade. But, franky, I think this idea is kind of silly and poorly engineered. Keep in mind, it could be that I just pretty much gave up on it after about an hour of playing with it, so I could be wrong. If you mastered it, it would probably look pretty good, but, honestly, I think to a real audience, the same trick done with coins would be more impressive. For what it's worth, that's my opinion. |
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kissdadookie Inner circle 4275 Posts |
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On 2012-06-15 12:48, runawayjag wrote: I don't know, I never found how the wallet added to the coin bend plot and had always felt that it took away from what is supposed to be a very straightforward plot. I mean, if a person could TRULY mentally bend a coin, there's only 2 possible and reasonable ways this would look. The first is to hold the coin at the fingertips or laid out in an opened palm and the coin would just bend OR one makes a fist around the coin and when opening the fist, the coin is found to have been bent. The order of events should give the illusion of no more than taking a coin and then bending it via one of the aforementioned presentations. Using the Terminator wallet just added an unnecessary addition to the handling whilst something like a Quantum Bender or Coinvexed has better and more organic motivation for their use (signing the coin to make sure it's the same coin). All that extra fluff with the wallet, taking a bill out to wrap the coin, etc. just muddles up what should be a very pure and straightforward demonstration of PK. Basically in a effect like a metal bend or a coin bend, the closer one can get to what a layperson would expect the demonstration to look, the stronger the effect is going to be. When you add additional fluff to the presentation, all you are doing is diluting the impact and turning it into more of a puzzle/magic trick rather than the very powerful effect it should be (thus STILL one of the best methods for a coin bend is still a sw***h with a pr****d). |
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takeachance Inner circle 3764 Posts |
Many thanks runawayjag,
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runawayjag Inner circle 1085 Posts |
Okay, I'm not going to get into a debate; I simply stated my opinion about the Terminator Wallet. But, yes, anyone who uses the wallet as an obvious tool to bend the coin is misusing the prop. I wrote a handling a long time ago here which made the trick so logical, the wallet is never even given a thought. Basically, and this is without going into detail, I simply ask if I anyone has four quarters for a dollar. There is NO wrapping the coin in a bill???? I have the lender sign one or more of his quarters and he gives them to me. I then take out the wallet and give him his dollar and then put the wallet away. It's done in a completely natural action that needs no misdirection and there is no bending movement or action to be covered. It is in and out of play in about a second and there is no need to misdirect the action of removing the bill. The audience can "burn" your hands from start to finish. Because it didn't do well, I have fooled ALOT of magicians with the Terminator as they do not even suspect the wallet had anything to do with anything. But, more importantly, of course, it fools real people. I'm sure Quantum Bender does, too, but I still feel the Terminator Wallet is the answer, at least for me.
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kissdadookie Inner circle 4275 Posts |
Quote:
On 2012-06-15 17:50, runawayjag wrote: People are easy to fool, it comes down to which method and which handling presents what you are trying to present in the most direct way. As for you stating that you've fooled magicians with it, you need to realize that usually a magician looks at an effect completely differently from how a normal spectator views the effect. Show any magician a trick and it's inevitable for them to automatically run a checklist of a compare and contrast of what they are seeing and what methods they are familiar with so that they can see if they can figure out the method. It's like a card change, a million and one different methods but often the case is a simple card transport with a DL being the most effective and direct. If you step back for a moment and read what you have posted, it's quite clear that you are more enamoured by the clever method rather than looking at the effect and thinking "what would really bending a coin using PK look and feel like?" That's fine and I'm sure it will fool people but there's fooling people and then there's presenting a miraculous phenomenon such as metal bending in the purest and most direct way to extract the most you can from the effect. Look at Uri Gellar, he doesn't uses clever methods, he has mostly used classic methods in his career but what he does very well is choosing the best method and best presentation to make the effect appear and feel as real as possible. Heck, a LOT of what Uri Gellar does can be considered blatantly obvious but to this day, MANY people still think that he's the real thing and it's all due to chosing the most DIRECT methods and presentations and also presenting things the way they would appear if it was real. You're obviously completely losing sight of this in favour of what you feel is a clever method. At the end of the day, the best way to present a coin bend or a metal bend is to ask for the object (if it's borrowed) or pick up an object and then just perform the miracle. Often times things like "sign this" or "let me borrow that" is used because some sort of misdirection is needed to hide the method, but with a coin bend, even with a simple sw***h of a p****nd, it's one of the rare occassions where you CAN just "borrow" the coin or just use a coin and do it in a very direct way without much of a need of misdirection. It's one of the few plots where you have a VERY efficient passage from point A to B. By using the wallet and needing to justify ringing in the wallet, you're muddying the efficiency here and the directness. Even with the QB, I'm actually not a big fan of asking for the coin to be signed in the first place as for the spectator, they really don't care (and there are many times that even with a signed coin being bent, some people will swear that you've switched it, this is clear evidence that the method doesn't matter but the PRESENTATION and how you SELL the effect is of utmost importance). I mean, if you like using it for coin bends, by all means, keep using it. Just keep in mind that the Predator isn't underrated by any means, it's just not anywhere near being the best method out there (clever method but not a great method). It not being anywhere near the best methods of achieving the effect is the reason that there was never really all that of a great big buzz over the product. |
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Bill Hegbli Eternal Order Fort Wayne, Indiana 22797 Posts |
Since when does "Buzz" constitute a product be great? Really! I always thought it had to do with the performer and how he handles it.
What has Predator have to do with this conversation at all, John gave his opinion, if you disagree, then disagree. You are taking this forum off topic. kissdadookie, I believe John Mendoza's reputation, knowledge, and comments weight much more then yours do. |
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bdekolta Inner circle Texas 1636 Posts |
I would not be too quick to dismiss runawayjag's opinion on what will play well for magicians or laymen. He has quite a track record in that regard.
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Judah Vee Special user of the JV Naughty Vanish.... 884 Posts |
Being as this thread is about Keyfly, I thought I would put us back on track. I got this awhile ago when it very first showed up on Penguin and I have to agree with runawayjag. I gave it a shot but don't really care for the effect as originally intended.
Honestly, I found the instructions to be poorly done. Not so much in content, but in the photos. They were blurry, and look static over the shoulder at a desk. I am not one to complain much about production values, but come on. At least do it a a table that looks a bit more professional. I was really bothered by that. It really makes it look thrown together and amateurish. Not what I would expect from these two fine men. The key case I received does NOT work like it should, The Keys BARELY fit (no matter which way I put them in) and the chains are too bulky. Not only that, but one of my chains had a loose link about halfway back into the case that was a total pain to fix. Still, I wanted to try to like it, but just don't. Truly the only thing that I really liked was the main gimmick. Mostly on the craftsmanship, But I do see some other possibilities that could be done with it. Unlike Runawayjag, I do like the thought of doing a three fly without coins. But as for using it for the original included routine this one was a bit of a fail. Not sure if I am going to keep it or not, but I might find a better use for it. Just my two centavos -J-
I don't care how fast or slow you are.... As long as I am faster.. -J-
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kissdadookie Inner circle 4275 Posts |
Quote:
On 2012-06-15 23:23, wmhegbli wrote: Hey, he gave his view, I gave mine. Simple as that. I never really said that he was wrong, all I really did was to point out a valid reason why the wallet has been " underrated" basically since the beginning. Like you've said, it's how something is presented/performed that is the key here which is also what I have pointed out. He brought up how the Predator is to him the best method to perform the coin bend but at this point, it's clear that he hasn't tried all the other methods to make a comparison. Honestly, regardless of his reputation on these boards, that goes out the window when one says X is the best method when one hasn't tried options Y and Z. It's like saying McDonald's has the best burgers without ever having had burgers outside of McDonald's. I'll leave it at that for you to gnaw on for a bit. Let's put it this way, there is one VERY famous/well known magician that has VERY strong views on mentalism. His reputation is VERY well known and positive (not going to name names though, just to avoid arguing too much) however, his views on mentalism is completely bananas and most mentalists would see many faults in his view/theories on mentalism (heck, the mentalism he does perform is actually pretty bad, and I've seen his act a few times over the years). What does this have to do with everything? Well, basically that a great reputation doesn't mean that a person is a Swiss army knife of solid thinking in all fields of the mystery arts. So the whole argument of "I trust him more because of his reputation" means very little in practical terms. I mean, I've watched and enjoyed John's Live and Personal tape, as a magician he's quite good and I like his thinking on magic but great thinking in magic doesn't necessarily mean great thinking on mentalism. EDIT: I've just noticed where the confusion came in. I've accidentally called the Terminator wallet the Predator wallet. So John Mendoza actually doesn't factor in here at all since he is a fan of the Predator which is an entirely different product (Terminator wallet is strictly for coin bends). Apologies for the confusion, but to keep everything in context, I did not edit this post and left the original intact. |
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runawayjag Inner circle 1085 Posts |
Like I said, I'm not here to debate. I have my opinion, kissadookie has his and whatever works best for either of us is good. For me, it's the Terminator. For MANY others, it's Quantum Bender. I've performed close-up magic for my sole income for over 35 years, so I know what works for me and my audiences and I am not easily enamored by methods. For me the effect and impact on an audience of paying laymen has always been my prime interest in any magic item. My real purpose in even mentioning the Terminator Wallet was to explain that I am a seriously BIG fan of Joe Porper and R. Paul Wilson's collaborations and point out the irony and minor personal disappointment that in this case I was not as enthusiastic. Take care, everyone.
John |
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e-man Special user HILTON HEAD,SC 880 Posts |
I have used the Terminator for 7 years now...always flies under the radar.My favorite weapon.Nothing is better than looking people in the eye as you bend their coin.
我被烹调
ERIC HELVENSTON |
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Mr. Mystoffelees Inner circle I haven't changed anyone's opinion in 3623 Posts |
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On 2012-06-16 00:11, Judah Vee wrote: Could it be you were scammed? Been a lot of discussion about rip-off artists essentially duplicating originals. One tip off that has been mentioned is bad instructions and an amateurish nature...
Also known, when doing rope magic, as "Cordini"
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kissdadookie Inner circle 4275 Posts |
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On 2012-06-18 09:07, Mr. Mystoffelees wrote: Doubt it, even on the WPR show, they hammered the point that even though the craftsmanship is superb, the gimmicks just don't handle as well in key form. I personally don't know what the point is to use keys for a 3 fly routine. Maybe the instructions teaches better applications for the props other than 3 fly, but the 3 fly/key fly routine seems to be the main focus of the release so, yeah. |
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Zombie Magic Inner circle I went out for a beer and now have 8733 Posts |
Quote:
On 2012-06-15 17:50, runawayjag wrote: John, thank you for posting that. It changed my mind completely about the Terminator Wallet! Also, about your experience with Key Fly. |
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