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Mr. Mystoffelees Inner circle I haven't changed anyone's opinion in 3623 Posts |
I have always taken this very seriously:
"As a magician I promise never to reveal the secret of any illusion to a non-magician, unless that one swears to uphold the Magician's Oath in turn. I promise never to perform any illusion for any non-magician without first practicing the effect until I can perform it well enough to maintain the illusion of magic." I am saddened to find a Michael Ammar vid on YouTube teaching the Lazy Man's Card Trick to anyone who tunes in. I was about to email him, until I noticed that evidently he posted it himself!? Lately, it seems that whenever this topic comes up, most posters see no problem with exposure, especially if it is by someone who is well-known or especially entertaining. So am I marching to a tune that has been rendered obsolete? Were the old masters wrong, at least in this "modern" society? Help me get my head straight... Jim
Also known, when doing rope magic, as "Cordini"
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Payne Inner circle Seattle 4571 Posts |
First off, What oath? There is a code that is pt forth in some of my beginners books on magic. But I've never taken an Oath or a Pledge.
Second, show mw an "old master" that didin't put his name on a booklet of tricks that he sold to the general public or write a newspaper article exposing "secrets". It would be difficult to name one. David Devant even thought that it was impossible to really appreciate the art and craft of magic unless one knew the secret. This idea got him banned from the Magic Circle for most of his life.
"America's Foremost Satirical Magician" -- Jeff McBride.
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Jim Sparx Inner circle Far Out, Texas 1144 Posts |
I did the oath thing in 1960 when I joined IBM and SAM. Here is the IBM and SAM Code of Ethics that members agree to:
"At a joint meeting in March of 1993, the officers of the International Brotherhood of Magicians, and the Society of American Magicians agreed to establish a Code of Ethic for its members and the fraternity of Magic. The following was ratified in May of that year and signed jointly at their National Conventions in July by IBM President "Obie" O'Brien and Sam President George Schindler. Here is the document: All members of the Society of American Magicians agree to: 1) Oppose the willful exposure to the public of any principles of the Art of Magic, or the methods employed in any magic effect or illusion. 2) Display ethical behavior in the presentation of magic to the public and in our conduct as magicians, including not interfering with or jeopardizing the performance of another magician either through personal intervention or the unauthorized use of another's creation. 3) Recognize and respect for rights of the creators, inventors, authors, and owners of magic concepts, presentations, effects and literature, and their rights to have exclusive use of, or to grant permission for the use by others of such creations. 4) Discourage false or misleading statements in the advertising of effects, and literature, merchandise or actions pertaining to the magical arts. 5) Discourage advertisement in magic publications for any magical apparatus, effect, literature or other materials for which the advertiser does not have commercial rights. 6) Promote the humane treatment and care of livestock used in magical performances." I remember doing the oath during the new member installation when I joined, don't know if there is a printed copy of that from the 60s but I specifically remember the part about revealing secrets. In fact I learned that on my visits to Kemps Magic Shop in the late 40s. "If you want to know the secret, buy it."
Et tu, Spartacus?
https://fineartamerica.com/profiles/chispadeelpaso.html |
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Jim Sparx Inner circle Far Out, Texas 1144 Posts |
I also remember one of my first few posts on the Genii forum mentioning "keeping magic secrets" and I got plowed under (ridiculed) by a long time member of that forum. Like, that is old stuff and now we are in a different era. I sent him a PM and politely told him to go stuff himself.
Et tu, Spartacus?
https://fineartamerica.com/profiles/chispadeelpaso.html |
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Ray Bertrand Inner circle Ottawa, Ontario 1452 Posts |
Good for you Spartacus. When I started out in magic over a half century ago, I was mentored into IBM Ring 151 in Ottawa, Ontario, Canada. They took the 'Code of Ethics' / 'Magician's Oath' very seriously. I agree with this concept. Those who want to really learn the 'secrets' will find us. When the student is ready the teacher will appear.
Ray
Mentalism in Ontario.
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Mr. Mystoffelees Inner circle I haven't changed anyone's opinion in 3623 Posts |
Quote:
On 2012-06-12 11:37, Payne wrote: Well, Payne, first off here is where I got it: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Magician's_Oath Second, magicians selling booklets of their tricks is a bit different than exposing it for free on YouTube. Third, quit trying so hard to live up to your name... life is too short to tolerate cranky behavior... Jim
Also known, when doing rope magic, as "Cordini"
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Payne Inner circle Seattle 4571 Posts |
Quote:
On 2012-06-12 14:20, Mr. Mystoffelees wrote: I don't quite understand what a Doctor Who episode has to do with the converstaion at hand. I mean I'm a big Whovian and all. but in this case I really don't think it applies here Quote:
But many of these books and pamphlets were available in public libraries making them just as free as a YouTube video. Quote:
Just trying to add a bit of insight here. Not all exposure is bad. I bet if you were a kid just starting out in magic you'd have been thrilled to have a resource to learn basic magic effects from like Youtube. The card trick you're referencing is a great beginners trick. Where would magic be if we didn't allow for new, younger blood to get involved in the craft. Exposure for exposures sake is one thing. Exposure in the form of treaching is another. There is a difference.
"America's Foremost Satirical Magician" -- Jeff McBride.
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Jim Sparx Inner circle Far Out, Texas 1144 Posts |
The oath he was talking about is here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magic_(illusion)#Secrecy
Et tu, Spartacus?
https://fineartamerica.com/profiles/chispadeelpaso.html |
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Michael Daniels Inner circle Isle of Man 1609 Posts |
Quote:
On 2012-06-12 16:08, spartacus wrote: No source for this oath is cited on the Wiki page. Mike |
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Jim Sparx Inner circle Far Out, Texas 1144 Posts |
There is a source for the one I quoted from the SAM site, that should be enough. However, if your not a member of either organization, feel free to ignore.
Et tu, Spartacus?
https://fineartamerica.com/profiles/chispadeelpaso.html |
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Jonathan Townsend Eternal Order Ossining, NY 27297 Posts |
What oath? What if you break it?
I don't see the benefit in reducing the options for audiences to experience the feeling of wonder. I see exposure as turning fairies into fireflies magical creatures into mundane carniverious beetles. So, when the most posh club has a rule that the secret has to cost ten dollars or more if you are putting an item up for sale to the public ... what is the real operating standard on exposure... what you get paid up front?
...to all the coins I've dropped here
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Jim Sparx Inner circle Far Out, Texas 1144 Posts |
If, in your twenty-four thousand plus posts, you have not discovered the meaning of, "what oath" - then I doubt seriously an explanation is either warranted or understandable.
Et tu, Spartacus?
https://fineartamerica.com/profiles/chispadeelpaso.html |
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Mr. Mystoffelees Inner circle I haven't changed anyone's opinion in 3623 Posts |
Quote:
On 2012-06-12 15:02, Payne wrote: Payne- Please accept my apology- I somehow posted the wrong URL, even though I copied it from the correct one! I will try again: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magic_(illusion) You could have sliced and diced me Payne, and you didn't. Sorry I was implying you were being cranky. Maybe I was... Regards, Jim
Also known, when doing rope magic, as "Cordini"
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Mr. Mystoffelees Inner circle I haven't changed anyone's opinion in 3623 Posts |
Quote:
On 2012-06-12 19:07, Jonathan Townsend wrote: All good questions, Jonathan. However, my original post and question is asking if we are in a new era and exposure is acceptable. What say you?? Jim p.s. "What oath? What if you break it? " Oh, my. This is what we hath wrought! Oaths are NOT broken, else they are not oaths at all...
Also known, when doing rope magic, as "Cordini"
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Jonathan Townsend Eternal Order Ossining, NY 27297 Posts |
? it ain't an oath less you swear it - and you know how folks are about swearing...
acceptable to who? other than magic shop suppliers nobody cares about puzzles and usually have to be lured into "secret" valued transactions. Or perhaps if they are going after the adult "craft of power" approach which IMHO is not an acceptible topic like religion and politics here at the Café ok?
...to all the coins I've dropped here
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Brad Burt Inner circle 2675 Posts |
What's the difference between teaching a willing participant and simply telling someone who wishes to know, how something is done?
What if you tell a group of people who really don't care or care very little how something is done? What about a book written for distribution specifically TO the general public. Lot's of those are published.
Brad Burt
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Jonathan Townsend Eternal Order Ossining, NY 27297 Posts |
Quote:
On 2012-06-12 20:46, Brad Burt wrote: IMHO the amount of delusion in the plea of the perpitrator and the extent of the betrayal in terms of how many they affected with the act. "willing participant" ... very funny. What are you getting from the transaction? What did they ask of you? Is this about them testing the bounds of secrecy with an adult or perhaps they are asking for a resource? What is the transation?
...to all the coins I've dropped here
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Mr. Mystoffelees Inner circle I haven't changed anyone's opinion in 3623 Posts |
Quote:
On 2012-06-12 20:46, Brad Burt wrote: Brad- Not sure where you are going with this, but please understand that I have gotten to the place where I no longer have skin in the game. I have heard people with more experience than I extol the virtues of Penn and Teller. I have watched Michael Ammar, someone I admired, blatantly give out secrets to those who have given nothing in return.. I have heard people who should know better say "what oath"? And now, you expect me to answer the inane "What's the difference between teaching a willing participant and simply telling someone who wishes to know, how something is done?" If you can seriously ask that, further conversation is a waste of my time. So don't give me "what if's" and "what about's", simply answer the OP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Jim
Also known, when doing rope magic, as "Cordini"
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Michael Baker Eternal Order Near a river in the Midwest 11172 Posts |
Quote:
On 2012-06-12 09:42, Mr. Mystoffelees wrote: If the "modern" society is indeed rewriting the rules, and rendering the old tune obsolete, then perhaps the old guard were not vigilant enough in who they entrusted with their secrets. As with a water line, sometimes the leak is a little further up-line than where you see the puddle in the grass. I tend to consider myself one of the old guard, although on the subject of exposure, I am sometimes inclined to laying certain things bare if the alternative is to stand idle and watch someone do harm beyond that done by anything I might say. Let's call it the lesser of two evils. However, I believe gratuitous, wholesale exposure does not lead to a nobler end.
~michael baker
The Magic Company |
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Atom3339 Inner circle Spokane, WA 3242 Posts |
I never took an oath.
Never needed to. Decided on my own not to expose secrets of our Art. Never have.
TH
Occupy Your Dream |
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