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Brad Burt Inner circle 2675 Posts |
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On 2012-06-12 22:20, Mr. Mystoffelees wrote: Oops! Sorry, I was taken up with the fripperies of the debate as it evolved. Despite your insulting response I agree 100% with your original statement. As limited as it was. You see I was attempting to expand your definition or show that it might want to be considered that it 'could' be expanded beyond the merely interpersonal. Consider for instance that your original statement only applies logically to 'you'. Tells us something ONLY about you and what you think of the problem of exposure as it affects what 'you' do... and, only in a very, very limited focus. There's nothing wrong with that, but the conversation seemed to be widening. Probably was not, but I am as deceived as the next guy. If you take your statement with it's 'personal' intent you would have to say that you have no problem with the 'Masked Magician'. I can't believe that was your intent, but that's the outcome. If you are saying or implying in the original post that 'everyone' should think the way you do, again, that's fine, but once again the definition is very limited. How is that? Simply because 'exposure' outside of the merely inter-personal is rampant and comes in all kinds of forms, for all kinds of reasons.....mostly, but, not exclusively monetary. ************************** And, now just an observation. In the 43 years I've been in the business I have seen exposure after exposure of one apocalyptic type or another. In all that time I have only seen one sector of the magic industry negatively impacted. As much as I would love to turn this into a 'guess which' game I will forgo that pleasure and let the information fly free. The sector is large stage illusions. I bothered me for some time: Why would that be so? The answer is embarrassingly obvious. I'm a close-up/parlor guy. Even in retirement my list of go to material is huge. Expose everything I do and I can pretty much guarantee that I could retool fairly quickly. There is just so much material it's starting to over whelm. But, illusionists? Not so much. Imagine you have only 2 tricks that each cost 10 large? Sheesh, man, that a lot of green to put out to get something new. I just pull a book off the shelf or watch a dvd! In every case that I talked to guys who were negatively impacted by creeps like the "Masked Magician", in every single case it was the illusion guys. Most guys have a limited number of good solid illusions and the hard won routines that go with them. I'm too lazy. You couldn't pay me enough to do illusion work. I'm too much the perfectionist and the extra work in rehearsal alone would kill me. I admire these guys. And, frankly, it DID rankle that guys making a living for themselves and their families were getting grief from prospective clients because of blanket tv exposure of their, mostly, limited material. It sucks. Am I excusing the exposure of whatever classic close-up items make the exposure shows? Not at all. It sucks there also. But, when I was working a lot some major exposures took place, some items of which I used and I never felt it. At all. It used to freak me out that I would do my Linking Ring routine and folks would come up after, say they had that trick, but mine must work differently. LOL It almost doesn't get better than that in a weird kinda way.
Brad Burt
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Pakar Ilusi Inner circle 5777 Posts |
Has the "Magician's Oath" left the building?
Yes.
"Dreams aren't a matter of Chance but a matter of Choice." -DC-
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Jim Sparx Inner circle Far Out, Texas 1144 Posts |
Was there ever a building to leave from? No.
I think the "oath" is internalized. Either you like it, or you don't. I took the "OATH" twice, both times when I joined SAM and IBM in 1960. But, I knew magic was suppose to be a secret from the people you were entertaining when I first started doing tricks from my Gilbert Magic set early on. Keeping the trick a secret was implied in the instructions received, and it was more fun fooling someone than letting them know how the trick was done. As a child, it is nice to be one up on adults, who think they know everything. For me, it was kind of like, learned behavior, keeping a secret. I still do it. I also realize you can figure out how any trick is done by going on the internet and doing a search, or watching videos on Youtube. I also realize that millions of people have never heard of the Masked Magician, or could care less about searching the internet for the instructions of my favorite magic trick. Those are the people who will most benefit, who like being entertained and fooled by a magic trick. And millions more will follow them. I am saddened that illusions costing thousands of dollars have been compromised by a few. I suppose there will always be arguments whether this exposure is beneficial, or has a negative impact on the art. It certainly is no benefit to those who have an investment in said illusions, to those, I offer my sympathy. In the end, I choose to keep the magic I do a secret. I enjoy being one up on people who think they know everything, or those who like being entertained. Thank you.
Et tu, Spartacus?
https://fineartamerica.com/profiles/chispadeelpaso.html |
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Mr. Mystoffelees Inner circle I haven't changed anyone's opinion in 3623 Posts |
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On 2012-06-13 14:30, Brad Burt wrote: Insulting? What part, Brad? It seems it could only be one word- inane. Webster define this as "lacking significance, meaning, or point". After consideration, I stand by my comment. If there is something else, please explain. The rest of your reply is golden. I had never considered the illusionist aspect. Well set out thoughts, and cogent. I apologize if I was being caustic. Not my way, but I am really about fed up with the apologists for exposure. I would be much happier if they would just say "yeah, the world today is "tell everything you know and no worries about who it hurts". As I said, just trying to acclimate to the new world of magic and exposure. Was it not Darwin who extolled the ability to adapt to change above all else? My bigger reason to ask the question is that I am considering leaving magic. I really do not like being told "I know how that is done". If exposure is the way of the future, then once the Masked Magicians and Pell and Tellers of the world have taken their profits, I don't want to be anywhere around. I feel betrayed my Mr. Ammar, as he was someone I looked up to. Where do you go from there??? Jim
Also known, when doing rope magic, as "Cordini"
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Brad Burt Inner circle 2675 Posts |
Your response above says you are not in favor of broadening the scope of the exposure debate from only the interpersonal. No sweat. I make that conclusion by way from your explanation of why my original post was 'inane'. That's cool. But, the stated reason for it was to move the discussion from the interpersonal to the more global. If the original once understood in that context was 'inane', then anything derived from it must be also.
Your sentences, "The rest of your reply is golden. I had never considered the illusionist aspect." are contiguous and thus connected so what you consider golden, must be the 'illusionist' section following my initial thoughts on widening the nature of the discussion. Again, that's fine by me and happy you liked the illusion observation. That said...here are some thoughts that came from my dealing with the your latter question: There are some considerations when someone tells you 'they know how it's done.' 1- They actually do know how it's done and know how to do it, because they are in the 'craft' if only as hobbyists. They are looking for validation and fellowship. Give 'em some. Costs nothing and ups your rep as a good guy. 2- They know 'how' it's done, but have no real sense of really 'how' to 'do' it. Say, "Cool man, look keep it between you and me ok?" This works like 99% of the time for me. 3- They only 'think' they know how it's done, but really don't. See #2 above. Note: There is NO possible way to argue someone out of a position of 'certain' knowledge, sometimes EVEN IF you show them they are wrong. Sometimes, but not generally in my experience, folks will toss out the closest thing they can think of to the method in order to 'get' the magician to let loose with the 'secret'. I have dealt with this for years by simply agreeing in the most convincing manner possible with them. If they are wrong, having them 'think' they are correct is a win. If they are right, what is lost? You could kill them, but that seems extreme....although in a couple of instances I really considered it justifiable. LOL Really, the best way to deal with it is to attempt in the strongest manner possible to get them 'on your side.' Make them a friend and ask them for the favor of 'keeping the secret', etc. There's nothing to lose and everything to gain. A ****ed off fellow is much more likely to react out of spite and spew the secret real or imagined at every opportunity. I take the 'ambassador' of magic approach and just try to end with folks that 'know' liking me enough to want to do the best for magic...even if they don't know, or maybe especially if they don't know that's what is actually happening. Best regards,
Brad Burt
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jazzy snazzy Inner circle run off by a mob of Villagers wielding 2109 Posts |
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On 2012-06-13 22:54, Brad Burt wrote: You hit a Home Run with that paragraph Brad. This is the most effective technique I have found to beal with the situation. They need validation, so give 'em some. Today's media has armed a lot o people with a little knowledge. I think the majority of them really love magic. They just haven't learned how to relate to it yet.
"The secret of life is to look good from a distance."
-Charles Schulz |
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Mr. Mystoffelees Inner circle I haven't changed anyone's opinion in 3623 Posts |
A spec telling me he knows how a trick is done hasn't bothered me much in the past. Now, however, if I happen to have done "The Lazy Man's Card Trick", there is a good chance he watched a blow-by-blow explanation on YouTube by a FISM-winner magician. That is, to me, very different.
"The real secret to unmitigated success is integrity. Once you can lose that, everything else is a piece of cake". Jim
Also known, when doing rope magic, as "Cordini"
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jazzy snazzy Inner circle run off by a mob of Villagers wielding 2109 Posts |
I agree. I just don't know what their rationale is for posting these things. There's no money in it. It certainly isn't good for their reputation with either peers or laymen. It's a mystery.
"The secret of life is to look good from a distance."
-Charles Schulz |
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Payne Inner circle Seattle 4571 Posts |
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On 2012-06-14 08:08, Mr. Mystoffelees wrote: So what really are the odds of you showing the Lazy Man's Card Trick to someone wjo has watched the instructional video of it on YouTube? Pretty remote. Unless you're presenting it as "The Lazy Man's Card Trick You Can Leanr on YouTube". Even with the ratings thast the First Masked Magician show got. If you ran the numbers it meant that for every audience of 100 that you performed for maybe one person saw the show. I can live with those odds. The video you're complaining about has only got 777 views. I think you'd be hard pressed to find anyone you're performing for outside of your magic club who has seen the video. Most peiople have better things to do with their lives than peruse the internet for magic secrets.
"America's Foremost Satirical Magician" -- Jeff McBride.
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Pakar Ilusi Inner circle 5777 Posts |
Has the "Magician's Oath" left the building?
It jumped out the window and committed suicide.
"Dreams aren't a matter of Chance but a matter of Choice." -DC-
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Mr. Mystoffelees Inner circle I haven't changed anyone's opinion in 3623 Posts |
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On 2012-06-14 11:22, Payne wrote: So are you justifying exposure on the basis that the odds are it won't affect your performance? How is that not like saying the mortgage scam was OK because only a small percentage of people lost their homes? Fortunately, for me, my ethics and morals go deeper. If I were to cheat on my wife, with only two people to ever know, it would haunt me. I guess Pakar is right after all...
Also known, when doing rope magic, as "Cordini"
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Payne Inner circle Seattle 4571 Posts |
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On 2012-06-15 08:36, Mr. Mystoffelees wrote: I'm not justifying exposure. I really don't care enough about the issue one way or the other to warrent coming up with a justification for exposure. I was just trying to point out that it really isn't all that big a concern if you looked at the numbers. your code of conduct isn't neccessarily my code of conduct and I've never taken the "Magician's Oath" so I think it an unreasonable expectation for you to try and hold me, or anyone else who hasn't also taken it to it.
"America's Foremost Satirical Magician" -- Jeff McBride.
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Mr. Mystoffelees Inner circle I haven't changed anyone's opinion in 3623 Posts |
Point taken, Payne. Using your logic, as there is no standard of ethics, and we each define it to our own purposes, there esentially are no ethics. And, since the Magician's oath is individual and optional, there really is no magicians oath. It not only left the building, it was never there-only the hope and dream of stupid mentors of the past...
I feel so much better knowing I can do whatever I decide is best for me...
Also known, when doing rope magic, as "Cordini"
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Jonathan Townsend Eternal Order Ossining, NY 27297 Posts |
Ethics? ethos? when you are in a magic shop the owners expect you to buy tricks.
anything else?
...to all the coins I've dropped here
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Brad Burt Inner circle 2675 Posts |
Ahhhh.... looked at even superficially Mr. Townsend's argument can ONLY be that the only manner in which to gain magic knowledge would be direct apprenticeship master to student where the student did not pay even in labor. Think about it? In every other path to magic knowledge money changes hands at some point.
Oh, unless, his argument isn't so much that magic dealers or the dealing in magic is unethical/a-ethical(?), but that ethics doesn't matter? I would much rather think the former than the latter. For...if he doesn't believe the latter then the former is all that's left to him. I guess picking up knowledge by psychically sucking it from the ether is still a possible........
Brad Burt
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longhaired1 Veteran user Salida 316 Posts |
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On 2012-06-16 00:27, Mr. Mystoffelees wrote: There is a significant gap between what Payne said and what you have concluded. |
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Greg the Great New user Massachusetts 39 Posts |
In my opinion, the reasoning behind the oath is misinterpreted. Exposure isn't bad because it kills the (note, I am not justifying exposure), but I have decided not to do it. When I was first into magic, I felt cool for knowing how it was done, and would tell after I performed it. Over the years, 10 or so, as I learned more impressive material, I decided to keep the methods secret. The reason being, you show someone a really good trick, it pus them into a different mindset. Seeing the impossible makes the feel boundless, and it is a good feeling. If you expose how it is done, you take this feeling away from them. The point of the oath should not so much be all about how it is wrong and immoral to reveal secrets. It should however be to protect the spectators and allow them to enjoy themselves. On that basis, the oath has not been thrown out the window for those who can call themselves true entertainers, but those who "know a few tricks" never had it in the first place.
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Ken Northridge Inner circle Atlantic City, NJ 2392 Posts |
Trying to draw lines if difficult. I’ll bet the 50,000 café members here have 50,000 different ideas about where the line should be drawn. I know where I draw my line and its a decision made with respect to Mr. Tarbell’s words.
“In your training as a magician the inner secrets of the magician are entrusted to your care. You owe it to your brother as well as yourself to protect the profession.”—Harlan Tarbell Whether you take an oath or not, if more magicians would simply respect these words this profession would be better off....or has Harlan Tarbell left the building too?
"Love is the real magic." -Doug Henning
www.KenNorthridge.com |
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Mr. Mystoffelees Inner circle I haven't changed anyone's opinion in 3623 Posts |
Well said, Ken. So have a significant percentage of magicians who follow Tarbell left the building? Do the rest of us look like fools for trying to keep a secret that is no long a secret?
Quote:
On 2012-06-21 20:54, longhaired1 wrote: Please explain.
Also known, when doing rope magic, as "Cordini"
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Pakar Ilusi Inner circle 5777 Posts |
Those who wish not to take the oath will suffer nothing.
So they don't. It is a moot point already imho...
"Dreams aren't a matter of Chance but a matter of Choice." -DC-
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