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Powermagic Inner circle 1437 Posts |
Hi
I have never thought the standard coin productions for miser dreams look like the intention of PLUCKING a coin from the air. It always seemed telegraphed to me. I was wondering if anyone knows of peoople who teach technique to make the production look magical. If not, if there are links to any video of a misers coin production that looks clean and magical, rather htan pushing or flipping up, but rather the coin just looks like it appears at the tips, please let me know Thanks |
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J-Mac Inner circle Ridley Park, PA 5338 Posts |
First, check out Levent's Guide to the Miser's Dream DVD set. It has very specific details regarding the production of coins, plus it is just an amazingly well-done project. Levent leaves no detail untaught. One more reference I can recommend is the book "The Art of Magic" by Nelsen T. Downs. Downs invented/created several gimmicks and devices for the quick production of coins for the Miser's Dream. One in particular that I like is a hole drilled in a coin with a wire loop that you place around your finger. It allows you to just move your hand very slightly and have a coin suddenly appear at the fingertips, over and over. It also takes care of any "finger fatigue" you may encounter after a number of productions if you are doing it purely by SOH.
HTH! Jim |
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Lawrens Godon Inner circle France 1108 Posts |
Hi,
I teach a move that does just that in my coin magic dvd Moneypulation vol.1. Here's a training session on a 3-coin production, you can see my "Direct production" at the 0:37 mark : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wt_sGoIQag0 I also concur With Jim about the great T. Nelson Downs and Levent's fantastic work ! Have fun ^^ |
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David Neighbors V.I.P. 4910 Posts |
My first Teacher said You come out A little Further ( body reaching forward) then your hand AKA your fingertips!
Just think of the coin floating out there in the air! It's almost a little Further out there Then you can reach! and you can just get it! You are Picking a coin out of the AIR!!! Not producing a coin At your fingertips!!! It's all acting!!! 1St. you see the coin floating out There! 2. Then you look at it! 3. And then you point at it. maybe with you hand,but better with just your EYES!!! You smile ( Happy-Happy- Happy! ) And THEN you reach out to get it!!! And BTW My 1st. Hard bound will Have BIG 1 st. Chapter all on coin productions! |
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Al Schneider V.I.P. A corn field in WI surrounded by 1080 Posts |
Here are some thoughts I have had about Miser’s dream.
To me this is an analysis in logic. I had struggled for years to produce coins magically from the finger tips. As I worked on it I had the thought that whatever you do, the audience can easily conclude that there was a coin in the hand and you manipulated it to get it to the fingertips in a magical way. Acting can improve this greatly but the bottom line is that the coin had to be in the hand to begin with. There are some devices that you can use to show the hand empty. These improve things greatly. But they also cost a lot in effort to accomplish. With further thought I decided to analyze what the effect of producing a coin is. That is, magic consists of several steps. One is showing a condition, two is showing a change, and three is showing the result of that change that is different than the condition in step one. In Misers Dream, what is step one, what is the change, and what is step three. I had great trouble determining this. Here is my first analysis. The hand is shown empty: step one. The hand reaches out: Step two? The coin appears at the fingertips: step three. This didn’t make sense. If when you produce a coin the audience, in reality, knows the coin is in your hand, what is step one? And then, with this sequence, what is step two where you apply change? Here is the solution I came up with. In Misers dream, the act of throwing the coin into a bucket is step one. That is where and how you show your hand empty. The change is where you reach out to grab an invisible coin. Then you show the coin at your fingertips. This seems to make sense to me. And this suggests to me how this could be communicated to the audience. It means this: 1. The process of throwing the coin into the bucket should be very actively communicated and should be considered the beginning of a production cycle. 2. The process of getting the coin to the fingertips is not magically important. It is perhaps important from the point of view of acting like a magician. 3. The act of displaying the coin produced is the end of the basic magic sequence. My thought here is that most magicians believe the beginning of this production sequence is when you reach into the air. This suggests to the audience the coin is already in the hand for a simple manipulation. The process of throwing it into the bucket seems as an afterthought. If the beginning of the cycle is throwing the coin into the bucket, the audience will label the hand as MT. Then, regardless of how the coin is brought to the fingertips, the audience will be shocked. One of my thoughts was not to bring the coin to the fingertips. One could just move the hand away from the body and close the hand. Then, open the hand to show a coin there. That would be the end of the production sequence. It need not be done fast. Then the coin is clearly thrown into the bucket, the performer looks up into space, reaches forward and just closes the hand. Upon opening, there would be a coin there. This has an eerie feeling to it. The magician closes his hand and opens it. There was no coin there and then there is a coin there. Sounds like good magic to me. All the work is focused on throwing the coin into the bucket not worrying about how to make the coin magically appear at the finger tips. However, it doesn’t hurt to do so. Well, these are my thoughts. Al Schneider
Magic Al. Say it fast and it is magical.
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David Neighbors V.I.P. 4910 Posts |
Sounds GOOD !!! Myself I was Talking About The production It's Self! NOT what goes on BEFORE Or AFTERWARDS!
Whole books Could be written About the the before, And the Afterwards! |
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magicians Inner circle Teacher and Legend 2898 Posts |
Since 1982 I have been selling instructions for "Flaming Coin production" usually as a prelude to matrix, but also as a startling way to produce coins in general. I recently have a flaming jumbo coin as a finale or stand-alone. It is just a simple method using my dependalite match pulls.
Illusionist, Illusionist consulting, product development, stage consultant, seasoned performer for over 35 years. Specializing in original effects. Highly opinionated, usually correct, and not afraid of jealous critics. I've been a puppet, a pirate, a pawn and a King. Free lance gynecologist.
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jpleddington Loyal user Lewisburg, PA 294 Posts |
Quote:
On 2012-06-12 16:28, Al Schneider wrote: Al, These are very interesting thoughts. Thanks for sharing them. I never quite liked the plucking of coins from the air, and you've done a good job of articulating my dissatisfaction with it. Certainly, as you note, changing the rhythm of the routine (toss in the bucket, then produce) can make a difference here. But I fear that plucking coins from the air still seems really, well, contrived. So I particularly like your second suggestion: to produce the coins by simply reaching out, closing the fist, and then opening the hand. I think the difference here is really significant. In the first case, when plucking the coins from the air, the implication is that there are invisible coins hanging around in the air that the magician is plucking and making visible. As a premise, that's pretty silly. As though the Miser's Dream were that invisible money grew on invisible trees. By contrast, with your fist-closing technique, the implication is that the magician has the power to materialize coins in his fist. Now that's a more intelligible (and theatrically clear) Miser's Dream. Jason
philosophy & magic
www.jasonleddington.net |
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cperkins Special user 700 Posts |
Lawrens, thanks for that clip.
Wonderful production sequence!!!! You have exceptional skill. chuck
To see a difficult thing lightly handled gives the impression of the impossible.
(Goethe) |
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Powermagic Inner circle 1437 Posts |
Yes I am talking about what is out there ore who is out there who can move a p@l#$d object into view and have it look like we want it to look like/
I am less concerned about if the hand is shown empty . It is the production I am looking into. WIth Card manipulation there is a more instant appearance, if performed correctly, due to the nature of the card, material and size. I rarely have seen a card or ball appera at someones fingers and not had it impress me. I am not saying these tehcniques do not exist but that I have yet to see someone perform it in a way that does not telegraph. Inan. I have not seen what your flaming coin is or looks like. I would have to see it but it sounds like it is not something you repeat for a misers. Lawrence, your coin production looks interesting but the video is not not the quality for me to judge how it looks live or if you have to have the other hand in play for it to be effective if continues productions. I was not a big fan of the downward production and one seemed like a flip. I am not saying they are bad, I am just giving feedback as to that what you demonstrate is not quite what I am seeking. As far as Levent, is this the routine? I do not really see the production I am seeking. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=viAiashGszE I understand for little kids and for stage audiences if you keep things moving you do not have to be as concerned about a fancy move. That is really not the discussion but what is out there and how good it looks. |
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funsway Inner circle old things in new ways - new things in old ways 9982 Posts |
The answer to your specific question cannot be explained here -- PM me
generally the desired impact is achieved by having the coin away from the fingers at the instant it is perceived by the audience. Every production does not have to meet that standard, but an occasional "there it is" and you grab it can enhance the magical quality of the performance. Several gaffless methods for doing this. but ... In addition to Al's fine analysis I have always felt it necessary to validate the productions (shutting the door) by later displaying the correct count of produced coins. In some of my MD type routines, 3-4 coins are produced and dropped into the container. These are then poured out into the hand and dropped onto a plate or tray -- then more are produced. The number is kept small so as not to tax the audience memory. At the end you have a pile of coins visually overflowing the plate. Yes, I realize that the oroginal routine had the coins all vanish at the end (a dream), but that seems lame and introduces the idea that the coins never existed. So, the ultimate steps are: 1) toss the coin into the bucket with sound and even occasional visual drop, 2) produce additonal coins by whatever means seems appropriate to the setting and story line, 3) display the actually produced coins as verification. My favorite is to perform close-up and completely surrounded; demonstrate dropping a coin into the container to establish a Pattern of Performance, magically extract coins from spectators and unusual places to drop into the container, frequently pour out the contents of the container onto a plate held by a child, end up with coins overflowing the plate and onto the ground with kids chasing them. Container?? Try using a borrowed baseball cap. As always, the methods used are so as important as the story told afterwards to grandchildren. If you only wish to demonstate some "ultimate" coin prodcuion, why do Miser's Dream at all?
"the more one pretends at magic, the more awe and wonder will be found in real life." Arnold Furst
eBooks at https://www.lybrary.com/ken-muller-m-579928.html questions at ken@eversway.com |
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Powermagic Inner circle 1437 Posts |
Oh I now see Levent is teaching more than his routine. Seems like an encyclopedia of coin productions. I am surprised how much is exposed in this link
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EO4WbhoIpGo |
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Jonathan Townsend Eternal Order Ossining, NY 27297 Posts |
Is he selling this on QVC? If it's directed at magicians... not much you won't find in old books or magic catalogs there IMHO and it looks like he's doing a good job demonstrating the material.
...to all the coins I've dropped here
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J-Mac Inner circle Ridley Park, PA 5338 Posts |
Quote:
On 2012-06-12 18:13, Powermagic wrote: You should see the entire DVD set! Every possible detail on The Miser's Dream. BTW, the wire loop on coin production I mentioned before is shown very briefly at 1:45 of that video. Jim |
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Atom3339 Inner circle Spokane, WA 3242 Posts |
I have never liked Miser's Dream. And I think it's because of the very reasons Al outlined. I will give his approach a try.
TH
Occupy Your Dream |
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Mb217 Inner circle 9520 Posts |
Quote:
On 2012-06-12 18:13, Powermagic wrote: Well, I would certainly consider this guy an expert on the effect, not to mention coin magic in general. I'm sure he has some wonderful theory on it as well. He's certainly a master at all its tools. If you can do all of this, all the rest is basic stuff really.
*Check out my latest: Gifts From The Old Country: A Mini-Magic Book, MBs Mini-Lecture on Coin Magic, The MB Tanspo PLUS, MB's Morgan, Copper Silver INC, Double Trouble, FlySki, Crimp Change - REDUX!, and other fine magic at gumroad.com/mb217magic
"Believe in YOU, and you will see the greatest magic that ever was." -Mb |
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Powermagic Inner circle 1437 Posts |
Check out some intersting stuff by Mike Boden for free on Hocus Pocus's web. Just search misers on their web site.
Popcorn production, while still not quite what I am looing for is interesting. |
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SmileAndNod Veteran user 316 Posts |
Maybe not quite what you're looking for, but something I think would look great for a misers dream routine is Chad Long's flash coins, but instead of tossing into the other hand, just toss into the air. Then into the bucket, then mime into the bucket.
Would add some flair to the routine. |
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funsway Inner circle old things in new ways - new things in old ways 9982 Posts |
There is a technique that I will call "Chasing Coins" -- not the actual name but my notes are packed aways. Rather than "plucking" coins from the air you act as if they are animated and in motion. Regardless of how you produce the coin -- at the moment of flash do an additional reach and grab as if it is trying to get away. You can actually release/toss/flip the coin so that it floats in the air -- even riding on your thumb tip as your open hand chases it. The illusion is that it appeared in thin air and you had difficulty grabbing it. If using the wire method mentioned above the coin can actually be suspended in the air as you hand moves (but don't over do it). Using a Ho**ed Coin can also work.
This is mostly acting with facial espressions and entire body flow essential to the illusion. Yet, you must treat this "getting the coin" as secondary to the "drop in the bucket" and "verification." Wish I knew who to credit this move to.
"the more one pretends at magic, the more awe and wonder will be found in real life." Arnold Furst
eBooks at https://www.lybrary.com/ken-muller-m-579928.html questions at ken@eversway.com |
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TJ Halford Elite user 431 Posts |
I have much less experience than the majority of you that have already given great advice, but when it come to appearing to produce multiple coins in quick succession. I am a big fan of Eric Jones' Pocket Miser's Dream Routine
TJ Halford
"Imagine what is Possible" |
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