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critter
Inner circle
Spokane, WA
2653 Posts
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Posted: Jun 16, 2012 12:16 am
0
I thought the point of "No Exit" was that our Hell is self-imposed. I don't remember it well enough to argue about it though
"The fool is one who doesn't know what you have just found out."
~Will Rogers
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Jonathan Townsend
Eternal Order
Ossining, NY
27297 Posts
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Posted: Jun 16, 2012 12:20 am
0
Quote: On 2012-06-15 20:16, critter wrote:
I thought the point of "No Exit" was that our Hell is self-imposed. I don't remember it well enough to argue about it though
How did they decorate their box of misery - and why do they stay in that box/cell/room?
...to all the coins I've dropped here
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Dreadnought
Special user
Athens, Georgia
836 Posts
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Posted: Jun 18, 2012 03:29 am
0
What is it with all the religion stuff?
I think there is a lot of hubris in this thread. Nevertheless, the theology of hell has always been, from the very beginning, a state of separation from God. The common misconception is that God sends or condemns a person to hell and that is completely false. It is the person who chooses hell by freely choosing, by word and/or action, to be eternally separated from God. Basically, it is a case of getting what you ask for. If one views God as a sick sadistic SOB, as one person said here, and that they want no part of that then, their wish is granted, eternal separation. One makes their own choices.
Peace and Godspeed.
Peace
"Ave Maria gratia plena Dominus tecum..."
Scott
Would you do anything for the person you love?
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R.S.
Regular user
CT one day I'll have
184 Posts
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Posted: Jun 18, 2012 11:38 pm
0
Quote: On 2012-06-17 23:29, Dreadnought wrote:
What is it with all the religion stuff?
I think there is a lot of hubris in this thread. Nevertheless, the theology of hell has always been, from the very beginning, a state of separation from God. The common misconception is that God sends or condemns a person to hell and that is completely false. It is the person who chooses hell by freely choosing, by word and/or action, to be eternally separated from God. Basically, it is a case of getting what you ask for. If one views God as a sick sadistic SOB, as one person said here, and that they want no part of that then, their wish is granted, eternal separation. One makes their own choices.
Peace and Godspeed.
(In the specific case of Hell for non-believers):
God, as the Supreme Designer, the Omnipotent and Omniscient being that he is, designed the system and the rules, didn't he? And the rules require belief in him. And the penalty for non-belief is eternal ***ation, isn't it? Now if someone doesn't believe in the concept of God, Heaven and Hell, then how can they possibly CHOOSE Hell? I mean, suppose I contend there is a One Eyed Spaghetti Monster Supreme Being who designed a system of, say, "Candy Land" on Alpha Centauri for the believers and "Snake And Spiders Land" on Pluto for the non-believers. If you simply didn't believe in any of that, but yet you found yourself in "Snake And Spiders Land" upon your death, would you say that you CHOSE it? Did you get what you asked for? Of course not. You never BELIEVED it! You can't choose that which you don't believe even exists.
Ron
"It is error only, and not truth, that shrinks from inquiry." Thomas Paine
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Dreadnought
Special user
Athens, Georgia
836 Posts
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Posted: Jun 19, 2012 04:15 am
0
That's a pretty good philosophy. I never thought of that. So, if I don't believe you exist, then you simply don't exist. Or even better! If I believe the federal government does not have the right to collect income tax then I can simply choose not to pay taxes and the federal government can't do anything about it because I can't choose what I don't believe even exists.
Peace and Godspeed.
Peace
"Ave Maria gratia plena Dominus tecum..."
Scott
Would you do anything for the person you love?
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kambiz
Inner circle
Perth, down by the cool of the pool
1129 Posts
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Posted: Jun 19, 2012 04:34 am
0
Quote: On 2012-06-18 19:38, R.S. wrote:
And the rules require belief in him. And the penalty for non-belief is eternal ***ation, isn't it?
Ron
Ron, the reality is that this statement is NOT TRUE......you have misunderstood the Holy Scriptures relating to hell. If you wish to present a quote from any Holy Scripture relating to what you think hell means, maybe we can analyse it together
Kam
If I speak forth, many a mind will shatter,
And if I write, many a pen will break.
.....and when I consider my own self, lo, I find it coarser than clay!
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Dreadnought
Special user
Athens, Georgia
836 Posts
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Posted: Jun 19, 2012 05:10 am
0
Quote: On 2012-06-18 19:38, R.S. wrote:
Quote: On 2012-06-17 23:29, Dreadnought wrote:
What is it with all the religion stuff?
I think there is a lot of hubris in this thread. Nevertheless, the theology of hell has always been, from the very beginning, a state of separation from God. The common misconception is that God sends or condemns a person to hell and that is completely false. It is the person who chooses hell by freely choosing, by word and/or action, to be eternally separated from God. Basically, it is a case of getting what you ask for. If one views God as a sick sadistic SOB, as one person said here, and that they want no part of that then, their wish is granted, eternal separation. One makes their own choices.
Peace and Godspeed.
(In the specific case of Hell for non-believers):
God, as the Supreme Designer, the Omnipotent and Omniscient being that he is, designed the system and the rules, didn't he? And the rules require belief in him. And the penalty for non-belief is eternal ***ation, isn't it? Now if someone doesn't believe in the concept of God, Heaven and Hell, then how can they possibly CHOOSE Hell? I mean, suppose I contend there is a One Eyed Spaghetti Monster Supreme Being who designed a system of, say, "Candy Land" on Alpha Centauri for the believers and "Snake And Spiders Land" on Pluto for the non-believers. If you simply didn't believe in any of that, but yet you found yourself in "Snake And Spiders Land" upon your death, would you say that you CHOSE it? Did you get what you asked for? Of course not. You never BELIEVED it! You can't choose that which you don't believe even exists.
Ron
We can get theological for a minute. Does God require you to believe in Him? On a certain level yes. Belief in Jesus, the second Person of the Holy Trinity, which makes Him God Almighty, is paramount. Should one not choose to believe, then what more separation can one desire. If one desires separation then separation is given, whether one chooses to believe or not.
Going deeper...
God does not require you to believe because He does not require your belief or anyone's belief to exist. God does not need anyone's constant singing of praises of Him, nor does He need us constantly glorifying Him. God does not require anyone's sacrifice or worship or anyone rushing to His aid to save Him. God doesn't need anything from anybody to exist. There is nothing anyone can do to add to or diminish His being.
But God does desire. What He desires is that we follow His commandments. The reason for that is for love of each other. Jesus sums up the 10 commandments in two. Love God with your whole heart, mind and soul and your neighbor as you love yourself. In Matthew 22, Jesus says the first is the greatest but also says the second of these commandments is like the first, meaning the two are the same. In other words, to love your neighbor as you love yourself is to love God with your whole heart, soul and mind. In John 15, in John's version of the Last Supper, Jesus gives everyone a new commandment in which He sums up all 10 commandments into one. "Love one another as I have loved you." And that is what God desires.
If a person chooses separation from God by not believing or as one person said, "Having nothing to do with the SOB." Then what one is saying is that they desire separation from humanity. I have always said, if a person doesn't believe in God then I seriously have to question just what is their outlook toward humanity? I am sure everyone here will readily say, "I have never done this, that or the other... I'm a good person because I've done this that and the other." But whose standard of good is everyone using? Afterall, no one really thinks they are a bad person. That's a cold reading fundamental. We're all good people. Never mind if we drink too much, we've earned it because we had a hard day or closed a bid deal. Never mind if we cheat on our spouse or sleep with another person's spouse... after all, it's not harming us, the individual? And I am sure the other person deserves it in some sort of sick twisted way. That little lie we told helped us secure a deal or get rid of that trouble maker at work. No one ever wants to really examine the conscience, no one wants to look into the darkness. This is all just digging a little bit below the surface, we can always go deeper.
We can go really deep and get into what belief in God actually entails, nothing like disturbing the comfortable.
Peace and Godspeed.
Peace
"Ave Maria gratia plena Dominus tecum..."
Scott
Would you do anything for the person you love?
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R.S.
Regular user
CT one day I'll have
184 Posts
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Posted: Jun 19, 2012 10:45 am
0
Quote: On 2012-06-19 01:10, Dreadnought wrote:
We can get theological for a minute. Does God require you to believe in Him? On a certain level yes. Belief in Jesus, the second Person of the Holy Trinity, which makes Him God Almighty, is paramount. Should one not choose to believe, then what more separation can one desire. If one desires separation then separation is given, whether one chooses to believe or not.
Going deeper...
God does not require you to believe because He does not require your belief or anyone's belief to exist. God does not need anyone's constant singing of praises of Him, nor does He need us constantly glorifying Him. God does not require anyone's sacrifice or worship or anyone rushing to His aid to save Him. God doesn't need anything from anybody to exist. There is nothing anyone can do to add to or diminish His being.
But God does desire. What He desires is that we follow His commandments. The reason for that is for love of each other. Jesus sums up the 10 commandments in two. Love God with your whole heart, mind and soul and your neighbor as you love yourself. In Matthew 22, Jesus says the first is the greatest but also says the second of these commandments is like the first, meaning the two are the same. In other words, to love your neighbor as you love yourself is to love God with your whole heart, soul and mind. In John 15, in John's version of the Last Supper, Jesus gives everyone a new commandment in which He sums up all 10 commandments into one. "Love one another as I have loved you." And that is what God desires.
If a person chooses separation from God by not believing or as one person said, "Having nothing to do with the SOB." Then what one is saying is that they desire separation from humanity. I have always said, if a person doesn't believe in God then I seriously have to question just what is their outlook toward humanity? I am sure everyone here will readily say, "I have never done this, that or the other... I'm a good person because I've done this that and the other." But whose standard of good is everyone using? Afterall, no one really thinks they are a bad person. That's a cold reading fundamental. We're all good people. Never mind if we drink too much, we've earned it because we had a hard day or closed a bid deal. Never mind if we cheat on our spouse or sleep with another person's spouse... after all, it's not harming us, the individual? And I am sure the other person deserves it in some sort of sick twisted way. That little lie we told helped us secure a deal or get rid of that trouble maker at work. No one ever wants to really examine the conscience, no one wants to look into the darkness. This is all just digging a little bit below the surface, we can always go deeper.
We can go really deep and get into what belief in God actually entails, nothing like disturbing the comfortable.
Peace and Godspeed.
Replace every instance of God/Jesus above with "One Eyed Spaghetti Monster." And I'll assume you don't believe in the OESM version (correct me if I'm wrong about that). Now, if to your surprise, you find yourself in "Snakes And Spiders Land" upon your death, would you say you CHOSE that fate?
"I have always said, if a person doesn't believe in God then I seriously have to question just what is their outlook toward humanity?"
A more compassionate outlook for starters. It is an outlook that affords dignity to humanity. It does not burden humanity with the guilt of "original sin." Sin that was perpetrated by someone else thousands of years ago by eating an apple. It is an outlook that does not condemn newborn babies as "sinners" (until they partake in all the cleansing rituals). It is an outlook that holds everybody accountable for their actions in the here and now. No "get out of jail free" card which allows for bad behavior here, only to be rewarded later, providing that the offender ultimately accepts Jesus as his/her savior. It is an outlook that treats life as MORE precious than any theistic outlook ever could because the atheistic view is that it's the ONLY life we have. This is not a test. This is our one and only chance to live in peace and harmony. There are no Gods to kill for. As a species, we are smart enough to recognize that certain behaviors are destructive to ourselves and to our environment. No God is necessary in order for us to figure that out for ourselves. And lastly, I'll argue that those who would only do good deeds because they believe someone is watching and keeping score is less altruistic than someone who does good deeds with no reward in mind.
Regards,
Ron
"It is error only, and not truth, that shrinks from inquiry." Thomas Paine
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landmark
Inner circle
within a triangle
5194 Posts
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Posted: Jun 19, 2012 11:06 am
0
Well argued RS. And I say that as one who, this week at least, is not an atheist.
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kambiz
Inner circle
Perth, down by the cool of the pool
1129 Posts
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Posted: Jun 19, 2012 11:11 am
0
Quote: On 2012-06-19 06:45, R.S. wrote:
Quote: On 2012-06-19 01:10, Dreadnought wrote:
We can get theological for a minute. Does God require you to believe in Him? On a certain level yes. Belief in Jesus, the second Person of the Holy Trinity, which makes Him God Almighty, is paramount. Should one not choose to believe, then what more separation can one desire. If one desires separation then separation is given, whether one chooses to believe or not.
Going deeper...
God does not require you to believe because He does not require your belief or anyone's belief to exist. God does not need anyone's constant singing of praises of Him, nor does He need us constantly glorifying Him. God does not require anyone's sacrifice or worship or anyone rushing to His aid to save Him. God doesn't need anything from anybody to exist. There is nothing anyone can do to add to or diminish His being.
But God does desire. What He desires is that we follow His commandments. The reason for that is for love of each other. Jesus sums up the 10 commandments in two. Love God with your whole heart, mind and soul and your neighbor as you love yourself. In Matthew 22, Jesus says the first is the greatest but also says the second of these commandments is like the first, meaning the two are the same. In other words, to love your neighbor as you love yourself is to love God with your whole heart, soul and mind. In John 15, in John's version of the Last Supper, Jesus gives everyone a new commandment in which He sums up all 10 commandments into one. "Love one another as I have loved you." And that is what God desires.
If a person chooses separation from God by not believing or as one person said, "Having nothing to do with the SOB." Then what one is saying is that they desire separation from humanity. I have always said, if a person doesn't believe in God then I seriously have to question just what is their outlook toward humanity? I am sure everyone here will readily say, "I have never done this, that or the other... I'm a good person because I've done this that and the other." But whose standard of good is everyone using? Afterall, no one really thinks they are a bad person. That's a cold reading fundamental. We're all good people. Never mind if we drink too much, we've earned it because we had a hard day or closed a bid deal. Never mind if we cheat on our spouse or sleep with another person's spouse... after all, it's not harming us, the individual? And I am sure the other person deserves it in some sort of sick twisted way. That little lie we told helped us secure a deal or get rid of that trouble maker at work. No one ever wants to really examine the conscience, no one wants to look into the darkness. This is all just digging a little bit below the surface, we can always go deeper.
We can go really deep and get into what belief in God actually entails, nothing like disturbing the comfortable.
Peace and Godspeed.
Replace every instance of God/Jesus above with "One Eyed Spaghetti Monster." And I'll assume you don't believe in the OESM version (correct me if I'm wrong about that). Now, if to your surprise, you find yourself in "Snakes And Spiders Land" upon your death, would you say you CHOSE that fate?
"I have always said, if a person doesn't believe in God then I seriously have to question just what is their outlook toward humanity?"
A more compassionate outlook for starters. It is an outlook that affords dignity to humanity. It does not burden humanity with the guilt of "original sin." Sin that was perpetrated by someone else thousands of years ago by eating an apple. It is an outlook that does not condemn newborn babies as "sinners" (until they partake in all the cleansing rituals). It is an outlook that holds everybody accountable for their actions in the here and now. No "get out of jail free" card which allows for bad behavior here, only to be rewarded later, providing that the offender ultimately accepts Jesus as his/her savior. It is an outlook that treats life as MORE precious than any theistic outlook ever could because the atheistic view is that it's the ONLY life we have. This is not a test. This is our one and only chance to live in peace and harmony. There are no Gods to kill for. As a species, we are smart enough to recognize that certain behaviors are destructive to ourselves and to our environment. No God is necessary in order for us to figure that out for ourselves. And lastly, I'll argue that those who would only do good deeds because they believe someone is watching and keeping score is less altruistic than someone who does good deeds with no reward in mind.
Regards,
Ron
Ron, what you just described are the central tenets of the Baha'i Faith......
...true religion has evolved mate, time to get with the times
.....but somehow it does not deny the existence of a Creator
"The Great Being saith: Regard man as a mine rich in gems of inestimable value. Education can, alone, cause it to reveal its treasures, and enable mankind to benefit therefrom."
No sign of "original sin" in that quote We are all responsible for our own spiritual education, and the application of that education into practice. Spiritual education is relative, not absolute. From then on, its all up to us to learn, reflect, practice...repeat, repeat, repeat. Heaven and hell reflect true justice, you put in the time, effort and integrity, you reap the rewards "JUSTLY"....there is no "punishment", just lack of rewards, its true justice.....there is no "darkness" either, just lack of light...
Kam
If I speak forth, many a mind will shatter,
And if I write, many a pen will break.
.....and when I consider my own self, lo, I find it coarser than clay!
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ed rhodes
Inner circle
Rhode Island
2885 Posts
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Posted: Jun 19, 2012 11:52 am
0
I haven't read the whole thread, so I don't know if this has been brought up.
Larry Niven wrote an update of Dante's "Inferno" also titled "Inferno." A science fiction writer dies and ends up in Hell.
He is released by a pudgy man named Benito who offers to guide him through the different levels of Hell, down to the center where there's a cave that leads to heaven.
At the end of the story, the writer puts forth a theory as to why God would put a Hell together and populate it with relatively minor sinners.
(Niven considers Vlad Tepes to be a minor sinner as no matter how atroious (sp) his acts, they ended and don't qualify for an eternity of punishment.)
I won't give you his answer since the book is a fascinating read and I don't want to spoil it for you. If you don't want to read it, PM me and I give you spoilers.
"...and if you're too afraid of goin' astray, you won't go anywhere." - Granny Weatherwax
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LobowolfXXX
Inner circle
La Famiglia
1196 Posts
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Posted: Jun 19, 2012 02:58 pm
0
Quote: On 2012-06-19 07:11, kambiz wrote:
Quote: On 2012-06-19 06:45, R.S. wrote:
Quote: On 2012-06-19 01:10, Dreadnought wrote:
We can get theological for a minute. Does God require you to believe in Him? On a certain level yes. Belief in Jesus, the second Person of the Holy Trinity, which makes Him God Almighty, is paramount. Should one not choose to believe, then what more separation can one desire. If one desires separation then separation is given, whether one chooses to believe or not.
Going deeper...
God does not require you to believe because He does not require your belief or anyone's belief to exist. God does not need anyone's constant singing of praises of Him, nor does He need us constantly glorifying Him. God does not require anyone's sacrifice or worship or anyone rushing to His aid to save Him. God doesn't need anything from anybody to exist. There is nothing anyone can do to add to or diminish His being.
But God does desire. What He desires is that we follow His commandments. The reason for that is for love of each other. Jesus sums up the 10 commandments in two. Love God with your whole heart, mind and soul and your neighbor as you love yourself. In Matthew 22, Jesus says the first is the greatest but also says the second of these commandments is like the first, meaning the two are the same. In other words, to love your neighbor as you love yourself is to love God with your whole heart, soul and mind. In John 15, in John's version of the Last Supper, Jesus gives everyone a new commandment in which He sums up all 10 commandments into one. "Love one another as I have loved you." And that is what God desires.
If a person chooses separation from God by not believing or as one person said, "Having nothing to do with the SOB." Then what one is saying is that they desire separation from humanity. I have always said, if a person doesn't believe in God then I seriously have to question just what is their outlook toward humanity? I am sure everyone here will readily say, "I have never done this, that or the other... I'm a good person because I've done this that and the other." But whose standard of good is everyone using? Afterall, no one really thinks they are a bad person. That's a cold reading fundamental. We're all good people. Never mind if we drink too much, we've earned it because we had a hard day or closed a bid deal. Never mind if we cheat on our spouse or sleep with another person's spouse... after all, it's not harming us, the individual? And I am sure the other person deserves it in some sort of sick twisted way. That little lie we told helped us secure a deal or get rid of that trouble maker at work. No one ever wants to really examine the conscience, no one wants to look into the darkness. This is all just digging a little bit below the surface, we can always go deeper.
We can go really deep and get into what belief in God actually entails, nothing like disturbing the comfortable.
Peace and Godspeed.
Replace every instance of God/Jesus above with "One Eyed Spaghetti Monster." And I'll assume you don't believe in the OESM version (correct me if I'm wrong about that). Now, if to your surprise, you find yourself in "Snakes And Spiders Land" upon your death, would you say you CHOSE that fate?
"I have always said, if a person doesn't believe in God then I seriously have to question just what is their outlook toward humanity?"
A more compassionate outlook for starters. It is an outlook that affords dignity to humanity. It does not burden humanity with the guilt of "original sin." Sin that was perpetrated by someone else thousands of years ago by eating an apple. It is an outlook that does not condemn newborn babies as "sinners" (until they partake in all the cleansing rituals). It is an outlook that holds everybody accountable for their actions in the here and now. No "get out of jail free" card which allows for bad behavior here, only to be rewarded later, providing that the offender ultimately accepts Jesus as his/her savior. It is an outlook that treats life as MORE precious than any theistic outlook ever could because the atheistic view is that it's the ONLY life we have. This is not a test. This is our one and only chance to live in peace and harmony. There are no Gods to kill for. As a species, we are smart enough to recognize that certain behaviors are destructive to ourselves and to our environment. No God is necessary in order for us to figure that out for ourselves. And lastly, I'll argue that those who would only do good deeds because they believe someone is watching and keeping score is less altruistic than someone who does good deeds with no reward in mind.
Regards,
Ron
Ron, what you just described are the central tenets of the Baha'i Faith......
...true religion has evolved mate, time to get with the times
.....but somehow it does not deny the existence of a Creator
"The Great Being saith: Regard man as a mine rich in gems of inestimable value. Education can, alone, cause it to reveal its treasures, and enable mankind to benefit therefrom."
No sign of "original sin" in that quote We are all responsible for our own spiritual education, and the application of that education into practice. Spiritual education is relative, not absolute. From then on, its all up to us to learn, reflect, practice...repeat, repeat, repeat. Heaven and hell reflect true justice, you put in the time, effort and integrity, you reap the rewards "JUSTLY"....there is no "punishment", just lack of rewards, its true justice.....there is no "darkness" either, just lack of light...
Kam
Might it evolve in the future such that the current central tenets of the Baha'i faith are discarded?
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.
"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
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kambiz
Inner circle
Perth, down by the cool of the pool
1129 Posts
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Posted: Jun 19, 2012 03:05 pm
0
Lobowolf, ABSOLUTELY!!!
Welcome to a new dawn in your consciousness....Baha'u'llah has revealed that there will always be Divine Educators till "the end that has no end" and it is the duty and spiritual obligation of every Bahai to unhesitatingly turn towards Him as their Lord and Divine Physician
Baha'u'llah does not claim to finality, nor does He claim to have revealed the "absolute truth" to mankind, although He was very much aware of the "absolute truth"
Kam
If I speak forth, many a mind will shatter,
And if I write, many a pen will break.
.....and when I consider my own self, lo, I find it coarser than clay!
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Dreadnought
Special user
Athens, Georgia
836 Posts
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Posted: Jun 19, 2012 10:19 pm
0
Quote: Replace every instance of God/Jesus above with "One Eyed Spaghetti Monster." And I'll assume you don't believe in the OESM version (correct me if I'm wrong about that). Now, if to your surprise, you find yourself in "Snakes And Spiders Land" upon your death, would you say you CHOSE that fate?
"I have always said, if a person doesn't believe in God then I seriously have to question just what is their outlook toward humanity?"
A more compassionate outlook for starters. It is an outlook that affords dignity to humanity. It does not burden humanity with the guilt of "original sin." Sin that was perpetrated by someone else thousands of years ago by eating an apple. It is an outlook that does not condemn newborn babies as "sinners" (until they partake in all the cleansing rituals). It is an outlook that holds everybody accountable for their actions in the here and now. No "get out of jail free" card which allows for bad behavior here, only to be rewarded later, providing that the offender ultimately accepts Jesus as his/her savior. It is an outlook that treats life as MORE precious than any theistic outlook ever could because the atheistic view is that it's the ONLY life we have. This is not a test. This is our one and only chance to live in peace and harmony. There are no Gods to kill for. As a species, we are smart enough to recognize that certain behaviors are destructive to ourselves and to our environment. No God is necessary in order for us to figure that out for ourselves. And lastly, I'll argue that those who would only do good deeds because they believe someone is watching and keeping score is less altruistic than someone who does good deeds with no reward in mind.
Regards,
Ron
Yes, I would say I chose it. If I made it to whatever heaven you have then I would say I chose that as well. So, if you are wrong, and there is a God, a Heaven and a Hell, do you believe that you should be allowed into Heaven when you chose not to believe and to make a choice? Just because you are a part of something, doesn't mean you can simply choose not to follow or accept the rules.
You've thrown a lot out there, a typical argument, so let's take it piece by piece.
First...
A more compassionate outlook for starters. It is an outlook that affords dignity to humanity.
I'm sure atheists can be and are compassionate. And I am sure everyone here will give witness to their compassion. I really have no idea where you particularly stand in regards to human dignity or what may regard as human dignity. But I know that human dignity starts at the point of conception and ends in natural death. Which means immigration, war, capital punishment, preferential treatment to the poor, the economy, the environment, families, euthanasia, abortion, prostitution, pornography, social welfare issues are all part of that seamless garment. It means visiting and taking care of the sick and the dying, even those whom you do not know. It means visiting people on prison or jail, especially those whom you do not know, those who have no one to visit them. It means doing more than cutting a check to a charity or dropping SPARE change into a pickle jar on the counter of some local stop and rob. It means buying bread, cold cuts and condiments and making sandwiches or even cooking a hot meal and walking under the bridge or in the alleys and feeding someone. It means gathering or buying coats and blankets and distributing them to those same people in the dead of winter and bringing them coolers of ice and water and bottles of water in the blistering heat of the summer. It means tending to the migrant and their needs whether they are here legally or illegally. It means going out of your way and actually seeking out those who need help and rendering them aid, not merely waiting for them to stumble across your path. It means doing and going without so a complete stranger can have more and doing so without rendering judgment. It means standing up for comprehensive health care, something the Catholic Church has been insisting on since 1919, making the Unites States government and those backing it Johnny come latelies.
The big question is, why does one do these good works? You claim, all Christians and people of faith do so because they fear God. Some may, but more do so out of love than any other reason. Because through the eyes of Christ, we see the suffering Christ. Why do you do it?
Without getting into the theology of original sin, although we can if we want. Baptism removes not just original sin but all sin. Outside of Baptism or the desire for it, there can be no justification for salvation, the only exception being simply the grace of God, which the Church commends a person to at death. It is a belief that baptism is more than a mere cleansing ritual. It is a communal ritual, one of welcoming and initiation as well as hope.
As for as accountability, on the very surface, we likewise hold people accountable in the here and now as well. To think that there is a get out of jail free card is completely false doctrine. There is confession of sins that offers reparation for the sin and a healing process, all of which takes place in the here and now as well as the afterlife. Forgiveness sin is not carte' blanche to simply do whatever you want. Forgiveness is paramount and requires a fostering of a deeper relationship between people especially the people harmed by whatever transgression is between them. It requires us to treat the other person with dignity, compassion and mercy, in fact, mercy above all. Something people of no faith have a hard time understanding. And to be fair, there are Christians who have a hard time with that part.
Not required means that if one doesn't believe thus not having to play by the rules. Following the latter belief, there is no responsibility to one's fellow man and no accountability regarding wrongdoing. It also blinds people, allowing them to rewrite ethics and morality to fit their lifestyle, which is the camp most atheists fall into. They want to believe in something but that something requires a bit of work, it requires them to make a choice or concession in their personal life, which they do not want to make. The hard core atheists are different.
My personal opinion is that I really don't care what an atheist believes or doesn't believe, as long as they get history, doctrine and theology right, which they never do. People like Richard Dawkins, Carl Sagan and Stephen Hawikings definitely have a brilliant mind. But they have the theology of a third grader. Their arguments are the same ones I get from 9 year olds. One doesn't go to the Evangelical minister for Evolutionary Theory and one doesn't go to the biologist, astro-physicist, chemist or p.e. teacher for theology.
Peace and Godspeed.
Peace
"Ave Maria gratia plena Dominus tecum..."
Scott
Would you do anything for the person you love?
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Steve_Mollett
Inner circle
Eh, so I've made
3006 Posts
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Posted: Jun 20, 2012 12:08 am
0
Author of: GARROTE ESCAPES
The absurd is the essential concept and the first truth.
- Albert Camus
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R.S.
Regular user
CT one day I'll have
184 Posts
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Posted: Jun 20, 2012 01:00 am
0
Quote: On 2012-06-19 18:19, Dreadnought wrote:
Quote: Replace every instance of God/Jesus above with "One Eyed Spaghetti Monster." And I'll assume you don't believe in the OESM version (correct me if I'm wrong about that). Now, if to your surprise, you find yourself in "Snakes And Spiders Land" upon your death, would you say you CHOSE that fate?
"I have always said, if a person doesn't believe in God then I seriously have to question just what is their outlook toward humanity?"
A more compassionate outlook for starters. It is an outlook that affords dignity to humanity. It does not burden humanity with the guilt of "original sin." Sin that was perpetrated by someone else thousands of years ago by eating an apple. It is an outlook that does not condemn newborn babies as "sinners" (until they partake in all the cleansing rituals). It is an outlook that holds everybody accountable for their actions in the here and now. No "get out of jail free" card which allows for bad behavior here, only to be rewarded later, providing that the offender ultimately accepts Jesus as his/her savior. It is an outlook that treats life as MORE precious than any theistic outlook ever could because the atheistic view is that it's the ONLY life we have. This is not a test. This is our one and only chance to live in peace and harmony. There are no Gods to kill for. As a species, we are smart enough to recognize that certain behaviors are destructive to ourselves and to our environment. No God is necessary in order for us to figure that out for ourselves. And lastly, I'll argue that those who would only do good deeds because they believe someone is watching and keeping score is less altruistic than someone who does good deeds with no reward in mind.
Regards,
Ron
Yes, I would say I chose it. If I made it to whatever heaven you have then I would say I chose that as well. So, if you are wrong, and there is a God, a Heaven and a Hell, do you believe that you should be allowed into Heaven when you chose not to believe and to make a choice? Just because you are a part of something, doesn't mean you can simply choose not to follow or accept the rules.
You've thrown a lot out there, a typical argument, so let's take it piece by piece.
First...
A more compassionate outlook for starters. It is an outlook that affords dignity to humanity.
I'm sure atheists can be and are compassionate. And I am sure everyone here will give witness to their compassion. I really have no idea where you particularly stand in regards to human dignity or what may regard as human dignity. But I know that human dignity starts at the point of conception and ends in natural death. Which means immigration, war, capital punishment, preferential treatment to the poor, the economy, the environment, families, euthanasia, abortion, prostitution, pornography, social welfare issues are all part of that seamless garment. It means visiting and taking care of the sick and the dying, even those whom you do not know. It means visiting people on prison or jail, especially those whom you do not know, those who have no one to visit them. It means doing more than cutting a check to a charity or dropping SPARE change into a pickle jar on the counter of some local stop and rob. It means buying bread, cold cuts and condiments and making sandwiches or even cooking a hot meal and walking under the bridge or in the alleys and feeding someone. It means gathering or buying coats and blankets and distributing them to those same people in the dead of winter and bringing them coolers of ice and water and bottles of water in the blistering heat of the summer. It means tending to the migrant and their needs whether they are here legally or illegally. It means going out of your way and actually seeking out those who need help and rendering them aid, not merely waiting for them to stumble across your path. It means doing and going without so a complete stranger can have more and doing so without rendering judgment. It means standing up for comprehensive health care, something the Catholic Church has been insisting on since 1919, making the Unites States government and those backing it Johnny come latelies.
The big question is, why does one do these good works? You claim, all Christians and people of faith do so because they fear God. Some may, but more do so out of love than any other reason. Because through the eyes of Christ, we see the suffering Christ. Why do you do it?
Without getting into the theology of original sin, although we can if we want. Baptism removes not just original sin but all sin. Outside of Baptism or the desire for it, there can be no justification for salvation, the only exception being simply the grace of God, which the Church commends a person to at death. It is a belief that baptism is more than a mere cleansing ritual. It is a communal ritual, one of welcoming and initiation as well as hope.
As for as accountability, on the very surface, we likewise hold people accountable in the here and now as well. To think that there is a get out of jail free card is completely false doctrine. There is confession of sins that offers reparation for the sin and a healing process, all of which takes place in the here and now as well as the afterlife. Forgiveness sin is not carte' blanche to simply do whatever you want. Forgiveness is paramount and requires a fostering of a deeper relationship between people especially the people harmed by whatever transgression is between them. It requires us to treat the other person with dignity, compassion and mercy, in fact, mercy above all. Something people of no faith have a hard time understanding. And to be fair, there are Christians who have a hard time with that part.
Not required means that if one doesn't believe thus not having to play by the rules. Following the latter belief, there is no responsibility to one's fellow man and no accountability regarding wrongdoing. It also blinds people, allowing them to rewrite ethics and morality to fit their lifestyle, which is the camp most atheists fall into. They want to believe in something but that something requires a bit of work, it requires them to make a choice or concession in their personal life, which they do not want to make. The hard core atheists are different.
My personal opinion is that I really don't care what an atheist believes or doesn't believe, as long as they get history, doctrine and theology right, which they never do. People like Richard Dawkins, Carl Sagan and Stephen Hawikings definitely have a brilliant mind. But they have the theology of a third grader. Their arguments are the same ones I get from 9 year olds. One doesn't go to the Evangelical minister for Evolutionary Theory and one doesn't go to the biologist, astro-physicist, chemist or p.e. teacher for theology.
Peace and Godspeed.
First, I'm sure you are very charitable and giving, as are many Christians.
Second, belief is NOT a choice. You are either convinced of something or you are not. As a believer, could you simply choose to be an atheist right now? No, you couldn't. Because deep down in your heart you are CONVINCED that God exists (you are convinced, aren't you?). Now your beliefs could possibly change over time, but that's a process of realignment of your inner convictions. If you are not convinced of something, then how can you choose to believe in that something? No matter how much theists insist otherwise, the "choice" of Heaven and Hell is rendered moot by non-belief (the "choice" element becomes meaningless and non-applicable).
As for sin and forgiveness, is there any conceivable way that a rapist can make it to Heaven under Christianity? Is there any conceivable way a law-abiding, upstanding, yet lifelong atheist can make it to Heaven? That's not rhetorical, I really want to know what Christians have to say.
Maybe the arguments of Dawkins, Sagan, Hawkings, etc. are the same ones you get from 9 year olds because that's all it really takes to poke holes in theology. Even most 9 year olds realize there really is no Santa Claus.
To wrap up, I think some Christopher Hitchens quotes would be appropriate:
"Name one ethical statement made, or one ethical action performed, by a believer that could not have been uttered or done by a nonbeliever. The second challenge. Can anyone think of a wicked statement made, or an evil action performed, precisely because of religious faith?"
"Human decency is not derived from religion. It precedes it."
“I have met some highly intelligent believers, but history has no record to say that [s]he knew or understood the mind of god. Yet this is precisely the qualification which the godly must claim—so modestly and so humbly—to possess. It is time to withdraw our 'respect' from such fantastic claims, all of them aimed at the exertion of power over other humans in the real and material world.”
“Here is the point about myself and my co-thinkers. Our belief is not a belief. Our principles are not a faith.
We do not hold our convictions dogmatically. We believe with certainty that an ethical life can be lived without religion. And we know for a fact that the corollary holds true - that religion has caused innumerate people not just to conduct themselves no better than others, but to award themselves permission to behave in ways that would make a brothel-keeper or an ethnic cleanser raise an eyebrow.”
Regards,
Ron
"It is error only, and not truth, that shrinks from inquiry." Thomas Paine
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Dreadnought
Special user
Athens, Georgia
836 Posts
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Posted: Jun 20, 2012 01:13 am
0
Quote: On 2012-06-19 06:45, R.S. wrote:
It is an outlook that treats life as MORE precious than any theistic outlook ever could
Regards,
Ron
That, like your whole response, is a really broad statement; you'll have to provide some examples or proof of this.
Peace and Godspeed.
Peace
"Ave Maria gratia plena Dominus tecum..."
Scott
Would you do anything for the person you love?
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Steve_Mollett
Inner circle
Eh, so I've made
3006 Posts
|
Posted: Jun 20, 2012 01:16 am
0
Why?
Author of: GARROTE ESCAPES
The absurd is the essential concept and the first truth.
- Albert Camus
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Dreadnought
Special user
Athens, Georgia
836 Posts
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Posted: Jun 20, 2012 01:30 am
0
Quote:
First, I'm sure you are very charitable and giving, as are many Christians.
Second, belief is NOT a choice. You are either convinced of something or you are not. As a believer, could you simply choose to be an atheist right now? No, you couldn't. Because deep down in your heart you are CONVINCED that God exists (you are convinced, aren't you?). Now your beliefs could possibly change over time, but that's a process of realignment of your inner convictions. If you are not convinced of something, then how can you choose to believe in that something? No matter how much theists insist otherwise, the "choice" of Heaven and Hell is rendered moot by non-belief (the "choice" element becomes meaningless and non-applicable).
As for sin and forgiveness, is there any conceivable way that a rapist can make it to Heaven under Christianity? Is there any conceivable way a law-abiding, upstanding, yet lifelong atheist can make it to Heaven? That's not rhetorical, I really want to know what Christians have to say.
It is a choice. You either believe or you don't believe. And it really doesn't matter at all, either way, because heaven and hell exists regardless whether or not one believes. Therefore, it's not "Rendered moot" just because one chooses not to believe. And in answer to your two questions, yes, but it's not as simple as that, theologically it runs way deeper, it has to do with the condition of the soul and the disposition of the person.
Peace and Godspeed.
Peace
"Ave Maria gratia plena Dominus tecum..."
Scott
Would you do anything for the person you love?
|
Dreadnought
Special user
Athens, Georgia
836 Posts
|
Posted: Jun 20, 2012 01:33 am
0
Quote: On 2012-06-19 21:16, Steve_Mollett wrote:
Why?
I know absurdist don't like the word why, but I would like to see some proof of that statement. Shouldn't be hard to find, should it?
Peace and Godspeed.
Peace
"Ave Maria gratia plena Dominus tecum..."
Scott
Would you do anything for the person you love?
|
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