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David Numen Inner circle 2072 Posts |
And quite a few mentalists are fake entertainers...
Another point is that sometimes I think the mentalist can kill the entertainment by overpresenting - especially with magician type humour. Mel Mellers is one of the very few that pulls off being a mentalist AND being really funny. Many miss the mark. |
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WDavis Inner circle 1276 Posts |
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On 2012-06-27 14:53, mastermindreader wrote: Bob, You forgot option C.. Sex no life without it W :) |
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mastermindreader 1949 - 2017 Seattle, WA 12586 Posts |
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On 2012-06-27 16:05, David Numen wrote: Good point. But by my definition of Mentalism as the presentation of seemingly psychic or mental feats in an entertaining manner, that would make them fake mentalists as well! Lots of those around. |
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Christian & Katalina Elite user 407 Posts |
So, this is an interesting discussion.
When I was younger and an amateur, the most important thing in my mentalism or magic was what “I” thought was important, it was about what “I” was going to tell them, it was about “I” wanted them to believe. Come on, “I” was an amazing performer just ask any of my friends or family or even me. However, once I started doing this for a living, things changed very, very quickly. It is the audience that pays your bills, not other magicians/mentalists, not unknown icons on a forum, or even those same people that said you were the greatest entertainer in the world. You suddenly listen to what the paying public wants. There are those here that say, if we demonstrate a psychic ability then the audience will be entertained. I have found . . . not so much. A solid mental trick, with a believable premise is a powerful thing to have, however, one hour of those alone will not carry the day. In my book Protoplasm, I talk about a corporate show we performed at where they had a mentalist a few years prior, their comment to us was: “We had a guy who could really read minds a couple of years ago and he freaked some people out, but he was not very entertaining or energetic. We don’t know if you two have powers or not, but you were a blast.” We have been hired back by that same corporation many times. Another story relates to a show we performed where again a few years prior they had hired a psychic that had been on TV. They reported to us that he was dreadfully boring in person. When we quizzed them further they said one on one he was outstanding but as a show . . . there was no show. Our first year in the college market, we created a show that was “supposedly” based in psychic abilities and psychology. It was a show to demonstrate the powers of the mind and blah, blah, blah. It failed. It failed huge. We quickly went back to an entertainment format and at the end of our career in performing at colleges we were doing 120 a year. Huge difference. I give these examples to show that simply demonstrating extraordinary abilities does not make for an entertaining show. Bob Cassidy warns many times in various books that you better not rely on the inherent interest of ESP to carry your show. I use one of those quotes in my book! If you have read my book or my mentalism column in MUM magazine then you already know I would rather err on the side of entertainment than real powers. This does not make my way the only way. It is the way that I prefer. As my wife and I introduce new pieces to our show we consider many variables, premise, believability, interest, blocking, overhead, prop management, entertainment value, etc. A piece might not make it for various reasons. I would say this, if your main concern is to make them believe that you have powers, you will be dealing with a different set of challenges than in my show. I do strive moments of WTF just happened, and I even prep this in my prologue of the show. However, I don’t lose sleep if people don’t believe what I do is real. I will tell you that we have a great deal of people who will ask us questions about our powers after the show. And . . . if you had seen our show, you would be surprised. I chose my path based on what I believe people wanted to see. I let go of a lot of my prejudices, ego, and stubbornness to create a show that was well received by the public. A long time ago a very successful non-magic performer told me this: “Listen to your audiences. They will tell you everything you need to know.” For me, I will always try to stun them, make them think that I can stop gravity, bend light beams, and turn lead to gold, but I will always do it as entertainingly as possible.
Milbourne Christopher Award for Mentalism 2011
The Annemann Award for Menatalism 2016 Author of "Protoplasm" Close-up Mentalism |
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mastermindreader 1949 - 2017 Seattle, WA 12586 Posts |
I'm Bob Cassidy and I endorse the foregoing message.
[Paid for by the Committee for the Truth about Mentalism] |
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robwar0100 Inner circle Buy me some newspapers.Purchase for me 1 Gazette and 1747 Posts |
Richard,
Life might be made of hard choices, but this isn't one of them. You have set up a construct for your own purposes, but life isn't always either/or. You have set the parameters to be A or B, but, in reality, it does not have to be. The New Testament is written in Koine Greek, a dead language. In studying this language for five years, one of the things I was taught that the American mind thinks in terms of either/or, but the Greek mind (at least back then), it could be either/and. To answer your question, I go for entertaining. Doesn't mean it's right or the only way, but it is the only way that works for my persona. Bobby
"My definition of chance is my hands on the wheel," Greg Long.
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thorin_10 New user Bilbao, Basque Country 58 Posts |
Well said Christian
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Shrubsole Inner circle Kent, England 2455 Posts |
A very interesting topic and I wholeheartedly agree that it's entertainment first and if I don't achieve that, then I have no show. I personally don't go out as a 'what I do is real and I have mystic powers' and always aim for a 'you decide' angle.
Having said that, what does everyone think is entertaining? What makes a show entertaining as opposed to a collection of routines (However nicely themed and bolted together to flow and make sense) Basically what do you think the X Factor is? I do find this hard to work out whilst rehearsing a new routine and have been amazed how many times something that I thought was a winner on the entertainment front, has bombed completely and something that I thought was a throw away piece of trivia has them talking about it for years. The only way I have found is trial and error: Develop a new routine and test it out. If it doesn't get the reaction I wanted then time to work on it until it does. I would never do an all new show composed of untested routines. In a new venue, they may think that they are all new routines as they haven't seen me before or in a long time, but 95 of my act has been fully tested and the other 5% is the latest thing I'm currently testing and working on. So how do you make your show entertaining? (Not the actual 'what' but more the 'how') Do you find that mass audience participation helps break the ice and get them involved?
Winner of the Dumbringer Award for total incompetence. (All years)
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C.J. Inner circle There's a lotta rambling in my 2366 Posts |
Complex discussion on that one Shrubsole. It might work better in a thread of its own.
Before mentalism, I did some time in the theatre. Ultimately, that's where I want to return to with mentalism, but I digress. In theatre you learn that the tiniest change in gesture, tone or timing can alter the level of humour in a comedy piece. But there are also times when you can have the audience laughing uproariously one night and only politely giggling the next, with no perceptible difference in how you performed. Entertainment is in the eye of the audience. As an example, think of a movie you consider to be entertaining. I can guarantee that there will be people out there somewhere who disagree with your opinion. So in searching for "the X factor" as you say, keep in mind that even the "perfect" performance will occasionally encounter an audience who respond with less enthusiasm than you'd like. You probably didn't need me to tell you that. Start a new thread on "What is entertaining?" and I'll gladly discuss my thoughts on the trivia concept you mentioned.
Connor Jacobs - The Thought Sculptor
Mundus vult decipi, ergo decipiatur Be fondly remembered. |
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David Thiel Inner circle Western Canada...where all that oil is 4005 Posts |
Do you get paid for what you do? Then it better be entertaining.
A facet of being "entertaining" is very often doing amazing things. It can also be about really connecting with an audience or making them laugh out loud and walk away talking about what a great time they had...which is also an amazing thing. David
Whatever doesn't kill you makes you stronger. Except bears. Bears will kill you.
My books are here: www.magicpendulums.com www.MidnightMagicAndMentalism.com |
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The Amazing Pog Veteran user 372 Posts |
Can I say 'intriguing' rather than entertaining, and 'plausible' rather than 'real'?
'One of the safest ways to make a good performance is to have tricks which work so easily, that mechanics can be forgotten and every attention devoted to presentation' - Corinda
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C.J. Inner circle There's a lotta rambling in my 2366 Posts |
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On 2012-06-28 09:42, The Amazing Pog wrote: That's only a step away from 'interesting' and 'possible', which takes us dangerously close to "ordinary" and "ordinary", so I'm gonna say no.
Connor Jacobs - The Thought Sculptor
Mundus vult decipi, ergo decipiatur Be fondly remembered. |
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The Amazing Pog Veteran user 372 Posts |
In that case (though I really like the word 'plausible') I'd rather an audience left entertained but unconvinced than bored but believing.
But that's because I know I'm not the real thing. If I was the real thing then truth would trump entertainment.
'One of the safest ways to make a good performance is to have tricks which work so easily, that mechanics can be forgotten and every attention devoted to presentation' - Corinda
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funsway Inner circle old things in new ways - new things in old ways 9982 Posts |
I watched Jeff McBride perform a couple of weeks ago and it is impossible for him do do anyhting that is not "entertaining." He does a memory demonstration that is neither a trick nor an allusion to paranormal ability. Yet, it is a demonstration of a power greater than normal: dedication, practice, discipline,etc.
Any mentalist can take the approach of "demonstrating an innate ability of all humans" -- the application of which may be considered a "power" or "paranormal ability." One reason why humans like to be confronted by mystery and events that defy easy explanation is that they are motivate/insired to be "more than they are." Thus, if you do not come across as "powerful" the performance will be neither entertaining nor inspirational. Methinks that each individuals goal in life should be to "do what no other has done, and be what no other has been." Each person can be powerful (more than able) relative to others around him. If you choose to make a living demonstrating this in an entertaining way that is simply a matter of focus rather than ability. To claim to have an ability you do not actually have is unethical whether you are a mentalist, priest, physician or politician -- unless you preface it with "this is for fun, a fiction illusion or pretense." That is usually entertainment or art. Opinions yes, but based on interactions with tens of thousands of people under conditions that would be considered either mentalism or conjury by most observers. My purpsoe (and success) was not directed towards either entertainment or "demonstration of power." Instead my objective was to challenge the other person's concept of impossibility in their life, business or problem area. Everything you do in life should demonstrate a power "other than normal" because to do otherwise is to choose mediocrity or the lowest common denominator as "normal." Entertainment is always a demonstration of a power other than normal/average. Yes, I am equivocating to some degree -- but so will each member of your audience, or man you meet on the street or relative or peer. There is no choice "between" power and entertainment as offered here -- only an individual choice of balance somewhere in between in the hope that it resonates with "someone out there."
"the more one pretends at magic, the more awe and wonder will be found in real life." Arnold Furst
eBooks at https://www.lybrary.com/ken-muller-m-579928.html questions at ken@eversway.com |
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Dr Spektor Eternal Order Carcanis 10781 Posts |
If you are an entertainer, I suppose one should be entertaining.
If you are a messiah, I suppose you better be spiritual convincing If you are an educator, I suppose one would hope you can help people get some knowledge, a skill or reflect on their attitudes. As a mentalist - I suppose one should be mental.
"They are lean and athirst!!!!"
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mindhunter Inner circle Upstate NY 2280 Posts |
Quote:
On 2012-06-26 21:16, RichardShure wrote: I don't think I'll attain "B" if on some, even remote level, the spectators don't think it is at least a remote possibility that I MIGHT have "A." Bryn
Bryn D. Reynolds, Author of:
"The Safwan Papers" & "The LOGAR Scrolls" Mentalism ebooks - PM any interest. My artwork: https://darkmountainarts.com |
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RichardShure Veteran user 344 Posts |
Bryn, are you saying that your entertainment value is drivin soley by your abilty to make them believe it's real.
I'm thinking about John Archer here. Do people believe what he does is real? |
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Shrubsole Inner circle Kent, England 2455 Posts |
Quote:
On 2012-06-28 18:34, RichardShure wrote: I don't as I have his DVDs! What can't be reproduce, however, is his comedy skills and that is where the entertainment is in that type of act. I'm not saying that his 'tricks' are not good, but it is his comedy presentation that makes him entertaining. And as with many comedy mentalists/magicians, what they are actually doing is secondary to the personality and comedy. Take Mel Mellors: The 'tricks' he does are usually simply very old routines and nothing but a vehicle and reason for him to be on stage presenting his alter-ego. The entertainment is all him and not what he is doing. It;s very easy to actually forget what it was he was doing in the first place and not lose any entertainment factor at all.
Winner of the Dumbringer Award for total incompetence. (All years)
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mindhunter Inner circle Upstate NY 2280 Posts |
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On 2012-06-28 18:34, RichardShure wrote: To be blunt, yes. IF regarding my performance of my mentalism effects.... I can be entertaining as hell with a great war story, pseudo-poker deal gambling demo, pool trick shot, off-color joke, or just showing pics off my my phone of my two-year-old twins. All are....entertaining, to a degree. MY "mentalism-entertainment-value," as you describe it, DOES, in my mind, hinge on at least leaving open the possibility that what I do is "real." Otherwise it is a magic trick, albeit entertaining. (and I can perform magic tricks very, very, well....but not what I prefer to do.) My definition of real, though, may differ vastly from others. I never speak of "why" or "how" I can do the things I do, but leave it up to the participant's judgement. More often than not, by a VERY wide margin, they do attribute it to something other than the trickery we mentalists employ. I claim no special powers other than "being a student of human moves," as Fast Eddie Felson, of the movie "The Color Of Money" claimed (that particular bit of cinimatic mastery brought Paul Newman Oscar-worthy fame, by the way.) I can't speak to what others think of Archer's effects. From what I have seen, they are no doubt entertaining. However, when I perform one of my mentalism efffects, I do rate it much higher in my mind if the desired outcome of "efffect" in the mind of the participant is percieved to have been attained by something by other than mere trickery. Bryn
Bryn D. Reynolds, Author of:
"The Safwan Papers" & "The LOGAR Scrolls" Mentalism ebooks - PM any interest. My artwork: https://darkmountainarts.com |
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RichardShure Veteran user 344 Posts |
Bryn,
Interesting hypothesis. What I read here is that your show is much stronger than say a John Archer performance because the audience believes what you do is real or at least not a trick. This statement: "Otherwise it is a magic trick, albeit entertaining." seems to say that even an entertaining magic trick cannot compete with a mentalism piece. I refer back to my orgianal post and the one made by C & K and Bob Cassidy above that expressed there have been many mentalists that have convinced thier audience that they are real but have failed to entertain. I keep reading in the thread that many people here believe that just the strength of a mentalism alone is enough to entertain. Of course we all want to have a strong mind numbing effect AND make it entertaining. However, the question was posed to examine what we feel is more important even it if is 49%/51%. It is just an exercise of self examination. Some of the responses here have made be think more deeply about this conundrum. When I read that someone simply wants the audience to believe that what they do is real. My next question is why? If that is more important than the premise of the entertainment then is this simply ego driven? I notice that almost everyone thinks they are "entertaining as hell" but WHERE are you taking your audience and WHY? |
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