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balducci
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On 2012-07-08 06:37, Woland wrote:

Health care is available for all in the United States. Any hospital that has an emergency room is required by law to treat all patients who show up, period.

"So, you have no insurance? Here, hold this compress against the bleeding. Yeah, that should do it. Take two aspirins and come back in a week."
Make America Great Again! - Trump in 2020 ... "We're a capitalistic society. I go into business, I don't make it, I go bankrupt. They're not going to bail me out. I've been on welfare and food stamps. Did anyone help me? No." - Craig T. Nelson, actor.
LobowolfXXX
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On 2012-07-08 12:55, balducci wrote:
Quote:
On 2012-07-08 06:37, Woland wrote:

Health care is available for all in the United States. Any hospital that has an emergency room is required by law to treat all patients who show up, period.

"So, you have no insurance? Here, hold this compress against the bleeding. Yeah, that should do it. Take two aspirins and come back in a week."


In my uninsured days, I was diagnosed with gallstones and an infected gall bladder, admitted, and had surgery the next day.

Doesn't quite make as good a horror story as yours, but on the other hand, that's what happened.
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
Woland
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Hi balducci,

Did that happen to you or anyone you know? Or are you just making up an hypothetical example? I could show you from their Annual Reports, were some large University-center non-profit private hospitals in the United States may deliver asmuch as 100 million dollars worth of unreimbursed care each, annually.
critter
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This seems less beneficial for those with ongoing conditions like asthma or a chronic heart condition. I can't see the benefits of having to be hospitalized every other day for this.
Come to think of it: who is footing the bill for those hospitalizations anyway? The taxpayers?

Wait a minute... how the crap did the health insurance debate come up in a nice thread about a patriotic holiday? How screwed up is that?
"The fool is one who doesn't know what you have just found out."
~Will Rogers
balducci
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That example, as worded, was obviously hypothetical. But I know of various people who have experienced that general sort of situation in the U.S. (treatment severely restricted or inadequate due to a lack of insurance).

There was also something like it on this very forum not that long ago. In that instance, the individual was sent home with skin lotion rather than have several infections properly dealt with. Out of respect for the family I would prefer not to concentrate on that example, but that example is certainly what first came to my mind when you mentioned an obligation to treat. To treat is not the same as to treat well or to even necessarily address the underlying medical problem.
Make America Great Again! - Trump in 2020 ... "We're a capitalistic society. I go into business, I don't make it, I go bankrupt. They're not going to bail me out. I've been on welfare and food stamps. Did anyone help me? No." - Craig T. Nelson, actor.
mastermindreader
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Quote:
On 2012-07-08 13:06, LobowolfXXX wrote:

In my uninsured days, I was diagnosed with gallstones and an infected gall bladder, admitted, and had surgery the next day.

Doesn't quite make as good a horror story as yours, but on the other hand, that's what happened.


So what's the rest of the story? How much was the bill and who paid it?
balducci
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On 2012-07-08 13:17, critter wrote:

Come to think of it: who is footing the bill for those hospitalizations anyway? The taxpayers?

A stateside friend of mine, long ago, as a college student, went to the hospital where his wife was ready to deliver their first child. They were panicked, because the hospital wanted $5000 and as students my friend and his wife could not afford it. So they had an abortion.

No, just kidding about that last part although I bet it does happen sometimes in those instances.

What really happened is the hospital admin took them aside and told them, it is okay, the $5000 is only for those with insurance, we always overcharge those with insurance and as a result we have a slush fund with money set aside to use in cases like yours. And so my friend did not have to pay a dime.
Make America Great Again! - Trump in 2020 ... "We're a capitalistic society. I go into business, I don't make it, I go bankrupt. They're not going to bail me out. I've been on welfare and food stamps. Did anyone help me? No." - Craig T. Nelson, actor.
LobowolfXXX
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On 2012-07-08 13:24, mastermindreader wrote:
Quote:
On 2012-07-08 13:06, LobowolfXXX wrote:

In my uninsured days, I was diagnosed with gallstones and an infected gall bladder, admitted, and had surgery the next day.

Doesn't quite make as good a horror story as yours, but on the other hand, that's what happened.


So what's the rest of the story? How much was the bill and who paid it?


I don't recall the exact amount, but it was in the mid 5-figure range. The hospital had an affiliated charity program tha picked up much of the bill, and they accepted payment arrangements on the rest.
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
mastermindreader
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I have often wondered how many uninsured folks drop dead of a heart attack when they get the bill for the first time they went into the hospital with chest pains.

Bleeding, such as practiced in the 18th Century, has not been abandoned. It's just that nowadays it is inflicted AFTER the patient leaves the hospital.

:eek:
Woland
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Hi balducci,

No form of a health insurance scheme, government payment, or even cash payment upfront guarantees excellent medical care anywhere in the world. There is no "corporate practice of medicine" in the United States. That is, every transaction or interaction is between a patient and a physician, not that physician's employers. The physician is held responsible for delivering appropriate, adequate medical care -- not excellence, mind you, but competence.

The British press has stories on a weekly basis of all sorts of horrific malpractice within the framework of a socialized medical care system --incidentally the largest employer in all of Europe-- that has been operating for over 50 years.
mastermindreader
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You mean HMO's are only figments of our collective imagination?

In the US there are stories on a weekly basis of horrific malpractice within the framework of our current system.
LobowolfXXX
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On 2012-07-08 14:52, mastermindreader wrote:
You mean HMO's are only figments of our collective imagination?

In the US there are stories on a weekly basis of horrific malpractice within the framework of our current system.


And, apparently, hundreds of preventable deaths in Canada, also on a weekly basis.
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
Slide
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It is unfathomable to me that anyone who has dealt with an HMO over the last 20 years could think that the US has the best health care in the world. It is unfathomable to me that anyone who has dealt with HMO"s over the last 20 years wouldn't be jumping with joy at the prospect of the Affordable Health Care act (can we call it what it is rather than what Fox news decided to label it as part of their anti-american propaganda campaign).
LobowolfXXX
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On 2012-07-08 15:26, Slide wrote:
It is unfathomable to me that anyone who has dealt with an HMO over the last 20 years could think that the US has the best health care in the world. It is unfathomable to me that anyone who has dealt with HMO"s over the last 20 years wouldn't be jumping with joy at the prospect of the Affordable Health Care act (can we call it what it is rather than what Fox news decided to label it as part of their anti-american propaganda campaign).


Are we going to call it "what it is," or what it was labeled? The President looked American right in the eye and swore up and down that it ISN'T a tax, then sent his attorneys to look the Supreme Court in the eye and swear up and down that it IS a tax. I don't mind discussing the facts of the system and the bill, and I don't mind having fun with the politics of it, but don't pretend that Fox is the only one playing propaganda with the labels.
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
mastermindreader
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Lobo-

That's a bit disingenuous, especially from an attorney.You know full well that in appellate argument you argue every possible position that will support your case.

Furthermore, since the penalty would only apply to one percent of the population, it is inaccurate to call it a tax. To be strictly accurate, it is a penalty that is authorized by the taxing power of Congress.
LobowolfXXX
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If one percent of the population smokes cigarettes, the cigarette tax is still a tax. I didn't suggest that the lawyer did anything wrong; rather that the position he took was inconsistent with the president's position. If you want to take the position the lawyer was acting properly (fine with me), then the flip side is that the president - who is NOT arguing a legal case, but trying to inform the American public - should at least admit that it can reasonably be construed as a tax.

Right or wrong, good idea or bad idea, the bill was sold based on a number of false premises. Does it ever become not "affordable"? The President also looked us in the eye and pretended that with the help of the CBO, he had any idea what it was going to cost TEN YEARS down the road. Who didn't think that was pure folly? Three years later, that figure was revised up by 87%. We were told we could keep our employer's healthcare plan, and the objections that many of those plans would be dropped (coming to pass) were dismissed or treated as Tea Party hype. We were told that illegal immigrants wouldn't be covered, and objections that after passage, efforts would be taken to legalize many of those illegal at the time of the passage were dismissed.

Maybe it will be better. I dunno. I *do* know that it didn't take me three years to know that the initial numbers the White House was throwing around were B.S., and I'll also tell you right here and now that if you think $1.76 trillion is the final price tag, you're out of your mind. I also know that many of the bill's supporters couldn't care less what the cost is. I think that only time will tell the final results. It doesn't affect me directly; I have insurance, and it's not provided by an employer of mine. Personally, I hope it's a great improvement (or, alternatively, if it's going to be worse, that it's repealed).

But it was sold to the public under false pretenses at every turn (and perhaps objected to under false pretenses at every turn, too). If I *were* a fan of it, I wouldn't use the word "disingenuous" when discussing it; I'd want people to forget that word was in the dictionary.
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
mastermindreader
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But you're clearly NOT a fan of it, so your position is not surprising. The President still disagrees that it is a tax, as did the rest of the Justices in the majority.
LobowolfXXX
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On 2012-07-08 16:04, mastermindreader wrote:
But you're clearly NOT a fan of it, so your position is not surprising. The President still disagrees that it is a tax, as did the rest of the Justices in the majority.


I am extremely skeptical of it. Your position is not surprising, either. The President is simply talking out of both sides of him mouth (with one side played by his lawyer). We don't know what the president agrees or disagrees with; we know that he's in an election year, and it would certainly not be politically expedient to call it a tax.
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
mastermindreader
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But it is VERY politically expedient for the right to refer to it as a tax. That's why Romney's handlers at the RNC nearly went ballistic when Romney also kept saying it wasn't a tax. (Before he changed his mind after he got a good talking to.)

The comparison to a cigarette tax simply doesn't work. The cigarette tax applies to a non-essential item that is purchased by a consumer. The health care penalty applies when something is NOT purchased, thus causing the public to have to make up the difference to provide health care for all.

When the mandate was a Republican idea they justified it under the concept of taking personal responsibility. So did Romney in Massachusetts. I guess they no longer agree with that because Obama also thought it was a proper rationale.

BTW, your arguments have convinced me that you are really an old-school Rockefeller style Republican. That's a good thing. I thought they had all died out and it's refreshing to see that at least a few moderate Republicans still exist.
LobowolfXXX
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I absolutely agree that it's very politically expedient for the right to refer to it as a tax, and both sides will make as much political hay out of it as possible. Romney has the luxury of not having had to try to sell it to the Supreme Court (the incumbent isn't the only one with some advantages); my issue isn't whether or not it's construed as a tax, but the inconsistency between the administration's public position and its legal position.

The comparison to the cigarette tax was in response to your claim that it's inaccurate to call it a tax since [it] would only apply to 1% of the population. If you had stated that it's not a tax because, for instance, it's requiring money for inaction rather than for taking an action, then I wouldn't have used it.

I don't think there really IS a good comparison, because I'm unaware of anything else that the government requires one to purchase.
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
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